Windows Activation And Microsoft’s “Trust” Issues

Vista -> Win7 = $119-$219
OSX Leopard -> Snow Leopard = $29

I doubt Apple has to worry, at least for this release. I’d pay $30 for a licensed CD instead of digging through dubious torrents.

My XP installs are going to continue to sit on XP until there’s a reason to upgrade to 7.

[...] What is wrong with Microsoft Windows activation? [...]

WOW, he can write very well, and really knows how to use words properly to express his thoughts. I also agree with him very much on this specific topic. Very well done!

i do not know what planet you are from, but obliviously it is not earth. at the 3 year mark for vista it cost microsoft 7 dollars to produce a copy of vista. this included all production cost, shipping cost to the resellers, the packaging cost, the research cost, and the administrative cost. this mean with an average selling price of around 130 dollars including the oem copies we have a difference of 123 dollars. the retailers only see about 20 dollars of this which means 103 in pure profit for microsoft. that comes to almost 1500% in profits. no wonder people pirate their software, however if you really believe that 70% of users have pirated windows then you are truly gullible. the number is closer to 30%. you do not get to be a 600 billion dollar company in less than 10 years without gouging the consumer.

Apple already has the greatest “Activation” scheme going on… the “Trusted Platform Module.” Because they only trust the hardware… not their users.

This is commentary is wrong in almost every way, but I’ll address some of them. The most glaring is this statement:

“given the fact that I can download any Windows Operating system from 3.1 to 2000 from just about any torrent site, shows to me that a majority of Microsoft customers certainly didn’t honour the ‘trust’ Microsoft invested in them.”

Ridiculous! The fact that you can locate a piece of software for download on bittorrent does in no way indicate that the MAJORITY of Microsoft customers do so, and it is incredible that you could draw that conclusion based on that piece of evidence alone. Just where is the logic in that absurd statement? Moreover, the introduction of mandatory activation in later versions have certainly not slowed the availability of copies on bittorrent or anywhere else. Copies of XP and even Windows 7 are freely available for any who want it, along with cracks for the activation.

The fact is that the VAST MAJORITY of Microsoft’s customers are folks who bought their operating system with their computer, and just use it to browse the web, send emails, or what have you. They know almost nothing about their operating system, and do not have any desire to ever reinstall it, much less would they consider downloading another one and fooling around with it. Most users view their computers as an appliance. They don’t want to know how it does what it does; they just want to use it. It is THESE people, of course, who are inconvenienced the most by the hassles of mandatory activation. Microsoft and others of DRM ilk have bought into the fascist doctrine of punishing everyone for the perceived sins of the few, but let’s face it, most people do not download operating systems.

Another statement I would like to address is this one:

“Look at it this way: If you want to buy a new computer but it’s expensive, do you steal it?”

I am so sick of hearing this stupid argument that I can barely find it within myself to respond to such a twisted analogy. But for once and for all: When you STEAL something, the original owner no longer possesses it! Understand? Copying software, whether you agree with it or not, does NOT steal it from the original possessor of it. Got it? The logic simply does not stand up. If people are going to argue for DRM, I wish they would at least use SOME form of logic to do so. Using such specious arguments just undermines credibility. When tape recorders were first invented, recording companies went all the way to the Supreme Court to prevent their sales in this country on the premise that everybody would “steal” their music off of the air and it would cost them sales. Same thing with video recording. All the way to the Supreme Court. “Everybody will ’steal’ our TV programs!” they squealed. Sickening logic, and ultimately jillions of dollars were made off recording media of both types.

I hold no sympathy for those who must use lies and misinformation to make their case. Such as when Microsoft and others (such as the RIAA) use download statistics to determine how much money piracy is costing them. Their ridiculous premise is that every person who downloads something would purchase it if they could not download it, therefore it costs Microsoft the entire purchase price each time it is downloaded. Outrageous, and it does nothing to bolster their case.

[...] What is wrong with Microsoft Windows activation? [...]

If you look at the number of people running Microsoft worldwide and the number on apple user, Apple has less than 2% of the market and most ot them came after it became linux based because they couldn’t keep it running with the Apple programing. Of the millions of windows users I would bet there are more people running hacked version of windows than there are people running Apple OS

pdh said:

“I am so sick of hearing this stupid argument that I can barely find it within myself to respond to such a twisted analogy. But for once and for all: When you STEAL something, the original owner no longer possesses it! Understand? Copying software, whether you agree with it or not, does NOT steal it from the original possessor of it. Got it? The logic simply does not stand up.”

I have to disagree with that. You ARE stealing; you are stealing the money. You are stealing the money you would have had to pay otherwise if you couldn’t download it. Before you say that you not have bought such an expensive program, that’s not the point. If you wouldn’t buy it because you wouldn’t use it, they did not lose out on sales. But if you downloaded a program that costs $300 (just to throw out a number) in the stores you ARE using the program and therefore you just stole $300 from the company because clearly you do want (or need to) use the software.

Just because stealing a computer means stealing hardware, doesn’t mean that copying software isn’t stealing. It merely means that you just took $300 worth away from someone without leaving your home.

Now, having said that, I personally think that the money is also the explanation to this. Because the line will differ from person to person, but all of us have a line. A line were under it we are willing to pay the money because, hey programmers need to eat too. But above it we refuse to buy the program because, it’s ridiculous that they ask that much money, it only costs a few cent to make a CD.
(Using an often heard argument in which people forget research costs and the wages that the programmers were paid.)

Just let us look at prices for a moment, shall we?
An upgrade to OS 10 costs a mere 29 Euro.
An upgrade to Windows 7 Home Premium is 120 Euro.
I only looked at upgrades because I assume the person already has a PC and OS.

And that right there is that line. 30 Euro for a new and elaborate program like an OS? You have to be a real scrooge not to pay that.

But 120 Euro? Well, a lot of people will say, ‘I really should buy that, but… well, economy is bad, and, well… I need to eat, and my car needs gas… well, alright, so what if I just download it? I’m not hurting anyone, and come on, Microsoft is not going to miss this little bit; they have enough money.’

And that simple fact right there is why MS needs activation and Apple doesn’t.

BTW, see the stealing again? They know that MS won’t get the money, but somehow they don’t see that as stealing? Hmmm.

To tell you the truth, for me, I find 120, not too bad, and it’s clear to see that MS is lowering its prices because they want to find that line where people still buy instead of downloaded.

Which, I grand you, leaves for the interesting argument, then why sell XP and Vista at such high prices? Clearly the profit margin can be less than hundreds of dollars per copy.

H.W.

OK….. Both are right…… but…
You have a woman….. she has 5 kids. Her husband is a farm laborer (Yes, they have those in the USA). He makes about 150 dollars a week (take home pay and that is NO lie). The family has to get Government help (foodstamps, etc.), just to scrape by each month. She goes to “yard sales”, to stretch their money. She sees a PC in the Yard Sale, (it would sure help the kids with school work).. so she buys it for 20 Dollars. It has NO OS on it. She wants to do the RIGHT thing, so goes to WALMART, and sees that a FULL VERSION of XP is 200 Dollars. There is NO way she can afford this. She has a “friend” who can get her a copy of it for “Free”. YES, SHE knows it is WRONG, but….. doesn’t HER kids deserve the same chances as others?

And …. for the MOST part….. I did NOT make this UP. I know many POOR people who fit this scenario every friggen day.

When it comes to PRICES….. People will argue the cost to make. For those who say it is a Great Price…. I say this. YES, programmers have to eat…. but that is FIGURED out and DEFUSED throughout the “projected sales” before being put onto the market.
production cost = .25 per unit (aka the CD, manual, paper, packaging)
marketing= 10 Dollars per unit
programming= 50 Dollars per unit
sundries= .75 per unit (lights, toilet paper, etc.)
extra stuff= 10 Dollars per unit
profit pointer= 40 Dollars per unit
……………………………………
That’s 111 Dollars
Retailer’s markup= 20 Dollars
……………………………………………………
Puts it at 131 Dollars for a FULL VERSION.
===================================

Now the TOTAL as it WOULD STAND.
…… Estimated Sales for Item is 5,000,000 Copies ………..

That would BE….
50,000,000 Dollars for Marketing (sounds about right).
12,500,000 Dollars per Programmer (20 total)
… If you continue down the list…. you will see that is Quite enough… That includes 1 place for “padding” the profit margin….
(now I know that the prices I have shown are WAY off base, but they are JUST to show how the pricing of a product REALLY works.)

VISTA is around 200 Dollars …….. before taxes. For what I had JUST shown you, it covers the COST just fine.
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Conclusion…. Yes, the prices are “close” to reality (on the OS that is). Yes, it is “stealing” when you download a copy. And… Yes…. for some people… it is quite necessary to put the “law” and one’s “morals” to the side, to make life bearable (if not for themselves, at least for their children).

SORRY………. I stated about HER looking at XP ….. you CANT buy it anymore ……… THERE is her OTHER dilemma for you.

Heck….. The PC may not EVEN run VISTA worth CRAP… so SHE has to get XP or lower.

And Chris,
If the movie “Pirates of Silicon Valley” had/has any bases in TRUTH, that GATES and Others…. “Pirated” software/technologies from “others”, I see NO reason why THEY should gripe/complain about it happening to THEM.

Gates has ALREADY been in MULTIPLE lawsuits about “stealing” copyrighted “codes” for the STUFF he has USED in XP , VISTA, Media Player. etc. THAT’s CALLING the KETTLE BLACK !!

Microsoft = It’s OK if we STEAL from OTHERS……. just DON’T you EVER steal from US.

And don’t forget that the 200 dollard price they (Microsoft) also apply outside US, for example: in Latin America, where medium salary is 300 a month. Can you imagine what any people here (in Panama for ej.) will do? Microsoft (and OTHERS) don’t change the price of their products (sometime even makes then bigger) in places where everybody know the live cost is completely different from US. If that is not criminal behavior and don’t know what it is? So, they deserve been pirated!

I might be confused here. Doesn’t Apple include the OS for every machine? And most PC’s include the OS as well. Now it is clear that some new PC’s are sold without an OS and I suppose some folk might buy that PC because it is somewhat cheaper. Those folk might be in the market for a pirated copy of an OS, but I expect those folk would be somewhat aware that their OS was illegal. I equally expect that this latter group is so cost constrained they would never actually pay for a retail copy.

One of the issues involved in activation concerns those that are unaware their cheapo dealer sold them a bogus OS along with their machine. So activation becomes a way for M$ to locate those dealers. Now Apple could care less about activation because there are so few who sell Apple clones and could use a bogus OS. Given the remarkable hassle associated with activation, I wonder how many dealers are actually caught and prosecuted? I fully expect piracy is rampant in some countries where even $25 for an OS is too expensive. Perhaps this is the M$ target.

I do know that I have friends who have some ancient PCs and have lost their OS install disks. I have on occasion used my version of W98 to get them running again. But their usage of those machines is fairly minimal. Further, a lot of modern software won’t run under W98. In some cases the machines can’t even run XP, but if they can run XP I generally won’t install XP even with known key hacks. Supporting XP is too much of a bother. With others, I have installed Linux even for resource constrained machines. Various open source software gets them most of what they need, but sadly, for the kids, not many popular games.

Considering the following: MS never releases any of their software to the stage of “abandonware” status to legally procure MS DOS 6.22, it sells for $39.99, this being said, it is how old? Yes it can be downloaded, is it legal to do so? No.

Although I do agree with using legal copies of all software you run, as a technicality I do not. Have I purchased everything I use? Yes I did. Easier to patch it, than jump through the hoops everytime I flip hardware (I test a lot of hardware in my machine, and re-install windows about every 2 months)
This topic is FUD for that reason alone, oh, I changed my videocard to this one, thats OK, i change back, thats OK, then sound card, Re-activate. Ohh, and god forbid change the NIC too. I spent more time on the phone with the activation center, them asking me how many times have I installed windows for this key than I will mention here. So thats just my 2 cents from a legal/ilegal user of XP/Vista.