American Adults – Not Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (Verified)

[...] the oracle posted a noteworthy aricle today onHere’s a small snippetAsk the leadership coach » The Windows Logo Certification ~ Revelations From An Unwashed Brain on The Windows Logo Certification · Ask the leadership coach » No Good Deed Goes Unpunished ~ Revelations From An Unwashed Brain on No Good … [...]

You have your Rome. Pity the mob that knows its masters. Have no doubt that there will be a return of the scribal class.

Shtanto, I don’t see things as that bad – yet. It is the general direction, however.

I believe we have to weed out the teachers who don’t have a love for teaching, the ones who become teachers because they believe that it’s a great deal to work 2/3 time for full pay.

Teachers need to get excited about the gleam in a child’s eye, when they truly get a concept, and then move on to understand another that is beyond grade level.

Little things like that matter. I remember staying after class in the 6th grade, talking to a science teacher about subatomic particle spin, and angualr momentum – I came away understanding something that was clearly beyond grade level, and with a respect for the teacher, who was more than a page ahead of the class.

I also remember talking to other teachers, who clearly had no comprehension of the subject beyond what was in the textbook, and my disappointment.

With my own children I have seen way too many teachers who are merely going through the motions, not really bad teachers, but certainly no better than ‘child processors’ theough the system.

[...] It’s been verified – American adults are not smarter than a fifth grader. [...]

I never did like that “Are you smarter than a 5th grader” title. It doesn’t really make sense. “Intelligence” and “smart” and words that refer to one’s ability to comprehend and learn. And even the smartest of people forget the things they consider inconsequential.

I’m sorry maybe I’m just showing my ignorance but it has always been my observation that even if you learn something you may well forget it if you don’t care enough to recall it again, especially as the adult brain starts working toward more specific rather than general information.

I mean these questions were basic general knowledge of seemingly random topics. I could definately see an adult who didn’t go into Archeaology not caring if humans and dinosaurs once lived around each other. And would as a result, not log that information away. I’m not saying the science is wrong here, but technically all science knows is they haven’t found bones that link the two time periods. So it’s not that these adults didn’t know dinosaurs and humans never lived at the same time, it’s that they didn’t know science says they did not live at the same time due to no evidence to the contrary. I mean science took a stand, right or wrong the evidence is on their side.

And who were these people interviewed? Random phone survey or not, the data set was small, and it hardly gives an accurate representation of US adults. I’m not saying they aren’t correct. I’m saying the survey only reveals so much, and that’s limited. Every adult I’ve ever run into, with the exception of those who never went to school (and even they sometimes know) or those who have mental disabilities would have been able to answer these questions perfectly.

In response to the teachers thing, most people would have to be insane to go into teaching for the money. Getting paid for only working 2/3 of the year with the pay that most teachers get reflects about 2/3 of the pay of a full year in many places. In some districts the required continued education that Teachers have to go through isn’t even paid by the district. Teaching is a full-time job. During school hours, and off school hours a teacher must be a teacher. The hidden curriculum is just as important as the one taught in class. And there is always learning going on, always work, always classes, always seminars, that have to be done, taken, and gone to in order to remain a teacher. Even testing for your teacher’s licence depending on the state/district you’re going to. I’m not saying some teachers aren’t there for reasons other than the children. But it’s continuously getting harder for teachers, financially, hard to get and keep jobs because of the economy and the idea that if a school is underperforming it’s less deserving of money to get the stuff to become a performing school. Very difficult indeed.

You know I look at this and I realize…with all of my “I’m not saying…” statements, I haven’t said a whole lot. :P

Levi,

the point you make about the humans and dinosaurs is valid for some, but I clearly remember this being part of second grade for me.

The number of people is a valid sampling, but it is a little bit meaningless if the margin of error is not given. Still, it is meaningful.

The point I was making, by commenting on the story, is that I believe it is a trend in the wrong direction – we are, as a nation, knowing less and less about less and less (the specialization you speak of).

The problem that I see is one I would not recognize as a teenager, or even a 25 year old – general broad knowledge is a valuable commodity. If a person works at it, that general knowledge can be expanded to a broad and precise knowledge in many areas.

Unfortunately, you and I differ on the subject of teachers – perhaps your experiences are better than mine. My recent experiences are based upon the schooling of my children. As a parent of two children in California, I see a school system filled with teachers who are as busy getting away from school at the end of their minimal day as the students in their charge, The ones I have come in contact with are full of excuses why they cannot accomplish things, and yet the teachers are intolerant of the children who have problems. They are unwilling, in many cases to stay after school, to help, or to do much actual teaching (which the definition, for me, means getting results, not simply speaking words in front of students).

In California, most of the teaching is left to the parents, and when the parents can’t or won’t take time, the children suffer. The parents, rightly believing that this is part of the purpose of their taxes, are understandably on the warpath about teachers whining about more pay.

I have only my own family to take a lesson from. As I was growing up, my stepfather was in the Army, and was away from the house many hours per week – he had little time for helping me. My mother had my two younger sisters to take care of, and though not stupid, had not studied many of the things I was taught in school- so not much help there. I was an A student, all through school, because I HAD good teachers. I got what I needed in class without staying after for remedial things, because of the care that these teachers took in class. They did this in large part by having control of the classroom.

I looked for this with my children’s classes and teachers, and there was/is a huge void. The California system is more worried about my daughter’s attendance than her capabilities. This is because the school is interested in butts in chairs, and the money it brings. My son quit high school, because as a prematurely born child, he has had health problems that precluded his perfect attendance. The system became ‘tired’ of having him miss approximately two weeks of school in the November to January period every year, as he would , no matter the care we took, get a near-pneumoia bronchitis. This was a problem that, in his last year of school could ‘simply not be tolerated‘ by the California school system. He is now attending college, and finding it a much better place to do actual learning. Consequently, my daughter has spoken, at times, about leaving school early – she is a 9th grader. I never had any problems like this, and it amazes the idiots who are teachers and administrators when I speak of knowledge and grades being more important than attendance. I relate the completely true story that I, when younger, was also a ‘problem child’ due to illness. In the 6th grade, I was absent more days than I was present- yet I got all A’s. This flies in the face of the current California model, which as I stated, is concerned with butts in chairs – for purely monetary reasons.

This when I hear anyone telling me that I should cut teachers slack, because they go mindlessly through their day teaching the exact same things they taught for the last x number of years, while being absent for so many days while getting paid, I have no time or tolerance for it.

Coincidentally, I am going back to finish college, to become (hopefully) a teacher. I will be doing it because I want to give back, and because I am tired of seeing so many idiots shown on Jay Leno’s Jaywalking. It would not be so bad, except that I know from personal experience, that it is not as if the show must interview hundreds of people to get the few idiots they show – I doubt if any episode of Jaywalking takes much more than 30 minutes on the streets.

I want to inspire people to do better, to attain more, and be proud of what they know, and by the same token, a little ashamed of what they don’t – so that work on obtaining knowledge will be a part of every day’s activities.

Thanks for the response.

The United States would be better off if only 5 year olds could vote!

[...] It’s been verified – American adults are not smarter than a fifth grader. [...]

One problem I see is the welfare state. I remember from high school kids that would actually look forward to graduating so they could just get welfare. I imagine that their parents weren’t great motivators or examples. Continuous welfare is a positive reinforcement of a bad habit. I also believe that a guaranteed steady paycheck for nothing in return is the most devastating thing you can do to kill a persons self worth.

Unfortunately Obama has already repealed the welfare reform that Clinton signed. Now states will once again be rewarded for having more people on the welfare dole.

This is just one example of a greater problem, parents just don’t care. Too many people mistakenly believe that they and their kids are simply entitled to an education. They fail to understand that education is a group effort. It takes one to teach and it takes one to learn. Education isn’t something that is done to a person. Parents need to actively emphasize the importance of an education to their kids.

If I were king for a day I’d implement a system that would somehow reward parents for taking continuous parenting classes. Positive reinforcement is the best medicine.

Another problem I see is the bureaucracy . This is how I see what you describe as their need for ‘butts in the chairs.’ Too much money doesn’t get down to the actual students.

My wife works in education in CA and the county has sent out a letter to everyone about impending layoffs. Here is a snip of it.

—
“…what has been handed to California public education for this year and next not only affects more than one thousand schools districts in our state, it impacts all 58 county offices as well. This year public education will be funded at $.92 on the dollar; next year it is projected that it will be down to $.87 on the dollar. Unfortunately, PCOE is not immune to the negative fiscal impact of the state budget. PCOE has been forced to review the efficiencies of our programs, services and operations for next year and make necessary cuts to reflect those efficiencies. For the past few months my office has been involved in discussions regarding our programs, services and operations and has learned many things:

* Many of our student programs generate funding similarly to a school district, with revenue coming from the state on a per student basis. Programs that are funded in this matter rely heavily upon student enrollment for their budget – an increase in enrollment means increased revenue; decreased student enrollment means decreased revenue. Unfortunately, I discovered that some of our programs have seen over time a decrease in student enrollment.
* Some of our student programs receive a fixed amount of funding regardless of the student enrollment. Often, these programs have served more students than for which funding was provided. Whether or not we can continue to provide these programs above what is funded for is currently being reviewed.
* Our largest student program – special education – serves a very specialized population of students. Historically, the revenue for this program only covers a portion of the services provided, with the shortfall between revenue and expenditures falling to the school districts in the county. Last year’s shortfall was almost half of PCOE’s special education budget. The districts’ ability to pay this annual shortfall is in jeopardy and has to be considered when reviewing the efficiencies of the program.

Cabinet members and I have been reviewing many of our programs, services and operations, looking at data, ratios, norms, and practices and have identified areas of savings which will not jeopardize the quality of programs and services our organization provides. Regrettably, in some cases, valued employees may be reduced this spring as efficiencies are identified.”

—

A third problem I see is the teachers union. Their goal is to get more teachers so that they get more union dues. That is their mission make no mistake about it. Despite what you hear in their ads they are not concerned about test scores or student achievement.

Obama has promised reform of this system by supporting vouchers. I really hope he can achieve this goal, however I don’t think he understands the power the teachers unions have. He’ll also have to fight his party to get this… something he has yet to prove successful at or willing to do for that matter.

mike,

Before I go on, how about some references? OK?

“Unfortunately Obama has already repealed the welfare reform that Clinton signed. ”

Citation please. Surely you don’t mean the extension of unemployment, or food stamps programs.

I suppose we diagree about your next point, because I do believe that education is a right in our country. And I believe that teachers are there to do the heavy lifting. Parents are responsible for providing students that are receptive and well-behaved. The presentation of material, and subsequent evaluation is on the teachers. In San Bernadino County, and since you are from California, specifically Yucaipa, my children were being taught as early as third grade in the manner of college students. That is, they were sent home with reading, not ever done in class, and expected to study on their own, and then take tests. This is fine at collegiate level, and possibly, to ready them for college, in the junior and senior years of high school, but not in the third grade.

I can’t make an educated comment about any teacher’s union, so I won’t.

I don’t see vouchers as a complete solution, because part of the problem as you say, is in the volume of children in programs. That volume would immediately dwindle with vouchers taking students away from public education. There goes any economy of scale. Another problem I see is that some of the private solutions simply are not. My son went to parochial school for two years (we’re Protestants), and there was a bit more caring, but the students were never well controlled, and the amount of actual teaching suffered. Another problem was the idea that the school needed to be as short in their instructional time as the public schools. When I went to school, both inside and outside of California, I was in class at least an hour and a half more each day. There were few, if any, “Teachers In Service” days. In short, more time in class = more teaching done.

BTW, I don’t expect teachers to do something with nothing. However, when I see them doing so little with something, it is hard to get excited about giving them pay raises.

I may be living in denial, but I think that teaching, just like doctoring, is a calling (or should be). The point of being a doctor should be helping one’s fellow man, not accumulation of wealth and guaranteed golf Wednesdays. In the same way, I hope to enter teaching to give back, not because I only want to work 2/3 time of others, for full pay. This may be part of the teacher’s problems in California, just as the unions in Detroit once gave benefit to the worker’s in Detroit, but went uncontrolled, and now have workers getting paid for not working. The original idea of unions was getting fair pay for actual work. If they stray from that, there is a problem.

Used to be a sub in several school districts in Western Arizona and Oklahoma before that time. What I have found is the most important thing for schools is having the students there…for the district cut of state education money. For instance in Arizona…all districts are paid for the students for the future school year by the enrollment on the 100th day of school. What this usually meant is this day would be spent “goofing off” to get as many seats filled as possible for funding purposes. Other times…it was business as usual.

Having gotten out of “the business” about two years ago…due to going poor too quickly & fearing for my life…got sick & tired of dealing with someone else’s “little angel” for any amount of money. This was in addition to being terrified of being attacked by the students when I upset their “country or social club”. Personally…I feel like public funding of education past 6th grade should cease. You want your child to have an education past this level…you pony up the funds for it.

D Lowrey,

the problem with your plan is you’ll have even more people on the street who won’t know how to do anything but become involved with crime.

Just wondering why more teachers don’t insist on controlling their classes. This starts early, or won’t work later, but if you put out the idea that it’s unacceptable to act up, or be disruptive in grades 1 & 2 there won’t be problems in grades 10-12.

“There are numerous variations on the old Russian story that gave us the word ‘robot’.”

The word ‘robot’ comes from a Czech (not Russian) play (named “R.U.R. (Rossum’s Universal Robots)” by Karel Čapek. As far as I know, there are not “numerous versions” of this play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R._(Rossum%27s_Universal_Robots)

AndyDan,

off the top of my head, I’d have to say that this is one of those times when wikipedia is completely wrong.

I say that because I read about this a long time ago before wikipedia, or people who would change things maliciously, existed. The book was one of the How & Why series, and was about computers, I was about 9 at the time.

The story was one from Russia, and the devices were called robotniks, not robota, as the wiki article says.

I did not say there were variations of a play, I said there are numerous stories in science fiction about robots turning on their lazy, or inept masters.

If what you cite happens to be a similar story, I would still believe that the original was Russian, as I have read that origination in several books about computers and automation.

Ha!

You think the government can achieve efficiencies through ‘economies of scale!?’ The only way the government will achieve this is by increasing the number of kids per teacher… which the unions will have none of. More teachers = more union dues.

The reason any type of government agency is inefficient is because they have guaranteed income and no competition. In many cases this cannot be avoided but where it does make sense (e.g. Education) we should actively support the government encouraging competition.

As for references with regards to Obama effectively repealing Clinton’s welfare reform:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123422835499665849.html

Mike,

I’m not sure we read the same document, yet I followed your link. It seems as though you take something and try to exaggerate it for your particular purpose.

Do you mean the article titled:

“The Return of Welfare As We Knew It”
“The House stimulus bill endangers Clinton’s biggest reform.”

Mike,

I see the title, but I don’t see this as something that will be a permanent change. I don’t think the right would allow it to stay.

The big problem I’ve always had with Republicans is their complete lack of the ability to put themselves in another person’s shoes. The ability to say “there but for the grace of God go I” is one of the things that makes us human.

No one wants to shoulder the burden when someone else is capable and lazy, but when there are difficulties, people of compassion step in to help.
This is completely foreign to MOST (note I did not say all) Republicans.

I wonder how many of the current 12.5% of those unemployed in my county are Republicans, and how many will refuse assistance when unemployment runs out, or is not enough.

What do you think?

First off, I tend to identify more with my ideology and values rather than my party. By that I mean to say I speak as a conservative rather than a Republican.

I completely understand where you are coming from however the argument is rigged. It isn’t that conservatives can’t put themselves in others shoes, they can and are quite generous with their money.

http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm
(since you so vehemently require links).

It is just that conservatives believe that charity is the providence of citizens and not the government.

Welfare. I think welfare is a good program that can have tremendous benefits to a society. However I don’t think of welfare as charity. I believe that most people think the two are the same, and the way the Democrats want to ‘enhance’ welfare speaks to that notion.

When I think of welfare I think of it as a type of national employment insurance policy. The goal of welfare should always be to get people employed and back on their feet. This benefits society; the more people working the more wealth is created.

A person who cannot support themselves, through no fault of their own, should first and foremost be supported by their families. If that isn’t feasible then that person should be supported by their community. If that isn’t feasible then, and only then, should some sort of federal plan be in place.

Also I want to point out that your last contention against Republicans taking unemployment benefits should they be laid is a no win situation in your eyes. It too is a rigged argument.

While Republican’s, or independents for that mater, may not agree with a certain law or regulation doesn’t mean they should work against the law as it stands. They were forced to pay into the system they didn’t agree with so you can bet that they’ll be looking to recoup where they can. They should however vote to change the law so that they can contribute their values and belief’s to the nation.

hehe… should republicans be laid…

meant to say should they be laid-off…
:-/

I fail to see how the argument is rigged, but to your point about conservatives being larger contributors to charities – I’ll turn it back on you -

if they are so moved to help their fellow man, why the huge stink about the removal of charitable deductions? Those giving for the right reasons should not object at all – for that would then taint their charity, right?

you’re begging the question.

Not from where I stand.