DTV Transition Shows Confusion Between Competing Views

Utter nonsense! The $40 coupon is there for the asking. The coupon means all they have to pay is either the tax on $40 or maybe 10 to 19 dollars difference. If the “poor” can afford a TV and an antenna for it then in the 90 days you have after you receive the coupon, you can find either a 40 or 50 dollar box and apply the coupon. This whining about the “poor” is like I said, UTTER NONSENSE!

I was reading the reply to this article.And i take it the replier has never been poor.And many having problems recieving signals even with the DTV box.Look up the definition of poor please.having little or no money, goods, or other means of support.dependent upon charity or public support.That is what poor means.Some has the box and had to purchase another antenna just so box would work and some still cant get box to pull in the signals.I guess you would say if that poor they dont need to see TV?I unplug my cable and set my antenna and box on TV and had a time after scanning pulling in the channels.So if was working fine before why not now?There’s going to be plenty problems.It will take time to iron it all out.And many will go to cable which i’am sure will jack up rates.

As to your point that Conservatives want to maintain the status quo, who says they still don’t?

Maybe they want to main the status quo of the February 17 transition date? (Ah-Ha!)

All kidding aside, I’m sure that if you do a little digging and (Like Deep Throat said) follow the money, you’ll find a pretty much equal number of “civil servants” on both sides of the aisle who stand to profit from the whole DTV thing.

The idea that “Liberals” are trying to delay the transition for altruistic reasons and “Conservatives” are pushing it for greed is just a tad naive. This just looks to me like the typical political posturing that all of the Congressional “greed-heads”, both Dems and GOPs practice on a daily basis.

And remember,

“The meek shall inherit the Earth………………………….
…………………….. a six foot plot above them!”
RAH

The $40 coupon has an expiration date 6 months post issue- I got two, but by the time I went to use them they had expired- no replacements, no re-do’s- Now this brings up this question - why would our government do such before the deadline for the change, secondly, when I got my coupons, there weren’t any boxes to buy. This brain trust that came up with this must be admired as a new wrinkle in getting the public to pay when they though they were getting a discount. Can’t’ wait for more stellar programs, especially health care.

Tom,

I had the same problem with the debit card “coupons”. Something’s sure fishy about having them expire and not being able to renew them.

Ii got smart and talked to the electronics manager at the local Wal-Mart to see when the next shipment would come in. As it turns out they were only getting maybe 30-40 at a time! I hope that our wonderful new health care system isn’t rationed in the same way!

I had been a DTH Satellite Technician for a while. The Analog to Digital conversion in the USA was due to the Public Safety Act. Not some whack Republican money crop.

The main drawback to this is due to the nature of Digital. It is either on or off. Where as with analog even with a weak signal and interference you can see something, even if it is a snowy picture.

The change was to free up frequencies for emergency use and sell off the rest.

But there is a MAJOR bonus. For the same amount of bandwidth your local OTA (Over the Air) TV Station can cram more channels in there. So instead of just a channel 13. You can have channel 13.1 13.4 and so on. You can now also get true HD OTA instead of a analog down convert.

If you are too poor to afford a DTV Converter. Maybe you should pick up a job instead of watch TV

And an addition to that note. TV is a luxury. It’s not required and does very little impact to enrich your life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

I know what it is about to be poor. But for the cost of DTV Converters, if your really think you NEED TV to have a good life. Then you are sorely mistaken. Sorry Tommy.

And I know there will be issues. But if you look at the middle east, on roof tops you will literally see masses of mini dishes. There is a lot of free OTA stations on that side of the world.

If you are having trouble getting reception, Set up a roof top antenna.

I find it funny how we Westerners like to play on the people in the middle east as being “dumb war mongering barbarians” but they seem to have a more common collective grasp on technology.

Setting up a OTA TV antenna is much easier that grabbing a 3/4 inch linear or circular bean from a Ku Band Sat 40,000Kms up in space.

Cable packages are cheap, And if you get your signal via Coaxial you will till be able to view it via analog. No box required.

John, such a compassionate attitude!

Tom, 6 months? That’s news to me, as we just redeemed our two, which took 3 months to obtain, but were dated to expire 90 days after the issue date.

I know that there were times when the boxes were scant - if you look at the ads and the rhetoric, it was PLANNED to be that way. Also, now that no one has coupons, there are PLENTY of boxes at the retailers, and the prices have jumped $10-$25. (meaning that much more than if you had a coupon)

As of the time when Barack Obama asked for the delay, there were 2million requests backed up, waiting to be issued, but unable to be issued, as the money had not been allocated.

This is simply more of the boondoggle that is the DTV transition.

Cliffystones, it will only be that way if the care is managed from Benton, Arkansas. I doubt that will happen.

Kold, I let your comment stand, because I’m no stranger to criticism, but let’s cut the personal attacks, ok?

Also, you’re ABSOLUTELY WRONG about the point of the bill, it is part of the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005. and if I was so inclined, I might wonder aloud about your reading skills and knowledge of the owrld around you.

As for needing bandwidth, that is bogus as well - but, let’s say for the point of argument it is correct, the type of service needed would be better served by using much higher frequencies, leaving television channels undisturbed.

But then again, you seem to have the same level of knowledge about this as the outgoing FCC chairman, so don’t feel bad, you’re not the Lone Ranger.

Kold, I have NO IDEA what point you are trying to make with the 2nd comment.

Perhaps you think that someone can go buy an antenna at the 99 cent store - for many that are having problems, it just is not possible.

Also, since you seem to wish to impress us with your knowledge of satellite technology, you might get over yourself for a moment, and realize that we are talking about DTV being received from 1 point on the Earth to another, not from space. There is a much greater chance of problems with this type of reception. Also, the DirectTV and Dish Network people have had a much longer run at getting the bugs out.

John, after rescanning, I think you need a FACT CHECK, which I can give, and an attitude adjustment, which I can’t.

As for the FACTS -

There are roughly 2 million requests for coupons, waiting in Washington, because the money to fund them is unavailable.

Many people, like me, are going to have to put up an outdoor antenna, where one is not necessary now with analog reception

(Digital stations will be broadcasting at much reduced power, on the order of one-third to one-half. Digital broadcasting is much different than analog, and certain things can OBLITERATE the reception, even in times of good signal strength.)

Outdoor antennas have suddenly become much more expensive (gotta love those greedy retailers) now that many have been given a way to see television in a better way. (The last time I heard a load like that it was how a CD was virtually indestructible and the sound would be 7th row center, forever. It was not true then, and isn’t true now.)

If you think that all will be well just because you can obtain that converter box, I have some land, in Florida, that I believe you’ll really like. (but you must hurry, it won’t be there long!)

Under the Digital Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005, all full-power broadcasting of analog television in the United States must cease after February 17, 2009. To assist U.S. consumers through the conversion, the Act also established a federally-sponsored DTV Converter Box Coupon Program.
see: http://www.dtv.gov/DTVAct.pdf

Yes, this is contained in the deficit reduction act, but it’s a 181 page act containing Tsunami alert, and enhance 911 coming from the auctioning of frequencies, separately in there, there is medicare hospital quality improvement, eliminating waste fraud and abuse of medicaid, etc. This is how acts get passed in washington, republicans and democrats get the things they want added to it, way beyond what the title is, or nothing would ever pass.

Reading the act, you see that the transition was before the act originally scheduled for December 31, 2006.

What’s with all the talk of prices going up? Where is the happening? Probably not at any major stores. I’ve seen the prices at radioshack, antennas have stayed the exact same price, occasionally some going on sale for a week at a time. The converter boxes have stayed at 59.99(19.99 after coupon), then a couple of weeks ago went on sale for 54.99(14.99 after coupon) that sale ended, and now they are on sale for the same price again.
If a retailer is actually inflating the prices, you might want to research it, reporting it to the correct government agency could result in the store getting fined.

On the coupon expirations, it’s so that when people get the coupons, and don’t buy the boxes, the money becomes available for other people to get them. Some people with cable or satellite got the coupons though they don’t need them, planning to get a 39.99 box for free, though they don’t need it. At least many of these people had their coupons expire so people who need them can get them.

From the start there have been retailers that could have taken the coupon for an order of the box to the customer’s house. Mostly online, but also, again radioshack(who does it with free shipping).

One thing I’d like to see would be how many unexpired coupons are still out there in people’s hands, compared to the number of people on the waiting list. From the beginning, it was stated that funds were limited, if there’s not going to be enough money for the people currently on the list to get coupons as older ones expire.

Just found this info https://www.dtv2009.gov/Stats.aspx and there’s been a 53% redemption rate, there are 11 million coupons still active, and 2 million on the waiting list, so more funds do not appear to be needed for the people currently on the list. Around 5 million coupons currently active will expire, about 1/3 of those will become available before February 17 as there are 30 days left. so, out of 2.1 million on the list, by the transition, 1.7 million will have them, leaving around 400,000 to get them the next week.

You could say some people still aren’t on the list, but seriously, if they are watching TV, they knew about this months ago, besides all the commercials, every local news program has been talking about it, many did a “test” where they kept announcing it for over an hour, then the analog signal went to a test pattern while digital kept live, etc. Most of those people remaining really aren’t going to do anything until their TV goes to snow. Delaying the transition just delays them doing anything. Some of the VHF Stations will be moving back to their VHF frequencies after the transition, which will increase the coverage of their digital signal over the coverage they are getting with their current transitional UHF frequency, so rescan for stations every once in a while, especially just after the transition.

I think the DTV transition is nothing but a way to get more people on either cable or satellite. I’ve been watching digital TV for several months and am very disappointed in it. I even went to antennaweb.org to make sure I had the right antenna. Sure, the picture and sound are better but digital signals have problems that aren’t encountered in analog signals. For one anything (and I mean anything) can disturb the signal. It doesn’t matter if it is an aircraft or a person walking around in your house or apartment, the signal gets disturbed. For another thing, the signals are extremely inconsistent. One day a channel will come in extremely well and the next day nothing. In fact, in the middle of a program the signal can drop out just like a cell phone call. Finally, every time you turn on your TV and converter box you need to check for antenna and signal strength. Personally, I don’t like it and cable is ridiculously expensive — and going up all the time. I guess I’ll be watching a LOT of videos from now on.

Alex, thanks for your response. I have stated that before, but as the writer, some feel I was using drama and literary license to get a point across.

The problems are there, and should have been addressed long before the method of transmission was settled upon. This was a problem with the people in the FCC. It seems that the Bush appointees were all asked questions about their understanding of electromagnetic wave propagation, and digital methods, and anyone who had the slightest degree of knowledge was immediately disqualified. (I know this sounds like I am dashing off a quick and feisty answer, but I have read, and listened to what these guys said, and believe me, they have no clue on many things that pertain to the FCC.)

Come on folks.Even i have voiced my opinion earlier.A lot of this has to do with money.I think my new rabbit ears i has in the box may not work.I tried one set after i purchased my box.I had many problems recieving signals.Then i couldnt get the local high signal stations in Houston.But what choice do we have.We has to do what we has to do.Either get cable or sattalite or buy new TV.If we cant afford it tuff.I know sounds bad,but thats how it is.I’am disabled and on fix income.I have cable and has my boxes in case i can no longer pay cable high bills.Now to worry about getting right antennas.And i live in apartments.Cant put on roof.Many gonna suffer due to progress.This is all about money than need.And the new stuff i hear is of no comfort.What would be cool if i could watch live tv by broadband.Me and the wife’s worry would be over.

To put all of this into perspective, ATSC, the committee who developed the US DTV, SDTV and HDTV was established in 1982. It was not a vast right-wing Bush administration conspiracy. The transition has been coming for a very long time. The original date was 12-31-2005. Nearly five years later and some people are not ready. Five years from now, there will be people still not ready.
By the way, if they can afford a $5 pack of smokes a day, they can afford a converter box.

Screaming Sloth, you’re right about ATSC being a committee. It was, however, ramrodded through as a part of the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005. Check your facts. I’ve checked mine. The DTV changeover was more of a ‘what-if’, not pushed hard until Bush administration, specifically, 9-11-2001.

What cigarettes has to do with this is something you might want to explain - unless it is part of some inside joke you aren’t sharing.

The fact is that TV is not a necessity. I may watch TV 30 minutes a week at most, and usually it’s to scan through the channels when bored, and there’s nothing of merit on, so I end up turning it off. I couldn’t agree more with Kold.

dmark, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would suggest, however, that you are simply looking at the right things on television. Try PBS!

Ahh, the money angle. It always goes hand and hand with POWER!
Hasn’t anybody noticed that your signal now has many encoded bits of data that can be manipulated at will by the broadcaster?
Prime example was the recent airing of the movie “Pirates of the Carribean” by network TV. If you were recording it with or without commercials, your DVrecorder was stopped in the middle of the movie and a message appeared onscreen informing you that the digital signal was interrupted to prevent copywrite infringement. If you wish to purchase the movie you can activate a payperview fee.
True, the extra info about the program and how long it runs,characters,reviews,etc are now available to antenna users that we did not have before, but the price is that the broadcaster can now manipulate any aspect of the feed to your home.
The cliff effect of digital means that many of the channels I used to get fairly well are no longer able to reach my home way out in the boonies. Most notably PBS and College access channels.
Some channels have yet to produce a reliable digital signal. Locally in Central Florida, 65.1 which is movies and family guy reruns is off air 30% of the time as well as RTN the retro channel.
It seems to be different problems even though they share a broadcast tower. One disappears completly, the other shows test pattern.
There’s more to the change than just broadbands for sale. BIG BROTHER now has more control of your information sources than ever before. Used to be to stop a security breach being aired, they had to go to the station to block the signal. Now they can just remove it from the air digitally.

Kevin, first, let me apologize for the time to get back to you. Apparently your comment was in limbo, due to the changeover of the site to a different server.

NOW !

“What’s with all the talk of prices going up? Where is the happening? Probably not at any major stores.”

Yes, it is happening. At the local Radio Shack (funny thing, I know it is a company store, and not a franchise, because I worked there) the prices have gone up! By precisely $10 per box. Also up are the prices at Walmarts in our area (4 of them in a 15 mile radius).

“If a retailer is actually inflating the prices, you might want to research it, reporting it to the correct government agency could result in the store getting fined.”

I’m sure this will do little to nothing, as the stores that were displaying the non-compliant analog televisions, after THAT deadline, are still fighting the fines, and in fact will probably not pay them.

“On the coupon expirations, it’s so that when people get the coupons, and don’t buy the boxes, the money becomes available for other people to get them. Some people with cable or satellite got the coupons though they don’t need them, planning to get a 39.99 box for free, though they don’t need it. At least many of these people had their coupons expire so people who need them can get them.”

The problem here is the lack of speed with which the government moves. The money from those unused coupons has not actually been ‘returned’ to the fund for sending new ones out.

As an aside, I personally KNOW people who have satellite on one television, yet were under the impression that the subscription to that technology made them automatically ineligible to apply for the coupons for any sets not served by the dish. Also, here in California, there are no converter boxes for $39.99 - the least expensive available are coming from Walmart, which are priced at $49.99 (small point, no big deal, but just wondering where you live)

Trying to tie this up as soon as I can, I think that

1] there were a lot of coupons sent in such a manner as to make the expiry much closer to 30-40 days, rather than the 90 which is quoted.

2] the coupons should not have had a date of expiry, period. This would allow those at the low end of the scale a chance to actually get the converter. Remember, these people are probably going to have to get a new antenna as well (I am, and as a former amateur radio operator, electronics student, and electronics sales man, I am sure it is necessary, due to the poor way in which the DTV signal is implemented, as well as the changes in frequencies and their propagation)

3] you overestimate the actual thinking capability of the average person

Your point about the moving of the channel assignments after the transition is another problem. People in this area have been told that since all stations are currently in the UHF spectrum, they needed a UHF antenna, eschewing any sort of coverage in the high VHF range, thus, they will be left out, unless fate is kind, or they purchase yet another antenna.

My points are that the entire changeover is
1] unnecessary
2] colossally mishandled
3] purposely obfuscated

If you look at the points that James made, and the way he made them, I think you will say that
1] his reasoning is not faulty
2] his results with DTV are not atypical
3] shows how even the intelligent are having problems, so what chance do the less intelligent have
4] no matter how you live your life, and get your access to the larger world, many people do it through television, and so will have problems.

Thanks for the comment. I really appreciate intelligent discourse.

What price are you seeing? The boxes in Radioshack, from back even before they arrived in the stores, and could first be ordered by a customer, were $59.99. The first ones had no analog pass through, then they were replaced by models with analog pass through. The price is now, and has been for a couple of weeks, a sale price of $54.99, and looks like it will remain there, though I don’t have any evidence of it. The boxes have been advertised in the weekly inserts, so different stores having different prices isn’t going to happen.

I am in Southern California, but in North LA county, an area that has been fringe coverage at best, I ask people looking for the boxes, how they are getting their TV signal, as many have Sat or cable and think they need a converter. I then, if they do have an antenna, ask what channels they get. Then what kind of a picture they get. I let them know they can buy the boxes,but they may not get ANY picture, unless they have been getting a “good” signal on analog. People get used to, and filter out the snow that appears on their screen. Checking antennaweb.org leaves you with some hope that the biggest of antennas + amplifier will get you good reception, but it’s hit or miss, and looking at the detailed info on TVFool.com and really researching it even to downloading some .kml files for google earth shows why. From the 1000 foot height of the tallest antenna on the mountain, the view north is blocked by more mountains. Looking at this, I wonder how anyone there ever gets signal, probably explains why neighbors can get different subsets of stations when they do have antennas on tall masts and rotators. Looking at the stats on https://www.ntiadtv.gov/coupon_stats.cfm by zip, most zips in my area had over 3x as many coupons ordered as used.
My sister in orange county, got a box, and found that wow, they get lots of channels with crystal clear picture with a set top antenna.

My hope is, that since part of the plan allows for “Translator Stations” that rebroadcast a signal into an area that can’t pick it up, the LA stations will put these up in northern LA county, and others will do the same in other areas.

Part of the problem is that the country is divided up into DMAs by nielson, not by any public agency, and so, for marketing purposes, geographically divided areas may be lumped together, or close areas divided, regardless of signal coverage. The DMAs are then used by the FCC for regulatory purposes, besides being ignored as having separate areas within them by the networks. There are more people in the shadowed area that’s part of the LA DMA, mostly on cable(one monopolistic company) or sat, than in many cities that have their own full set of TV networks, multiple sports franchises, full service regional or larger airports etc. Walmart realised this, several years after opening 2 stores, they opened 2 more, then expanded and remodeled the new ones into supercenters, then moved the old ones(one of which was already over the size of most supercenters) and then remodeled and expanded them into supercenters. One of them now dwarfs the sams club it is next to. It seems to go that way, a chain does not exist here, when they finally open a store/branch/franchise, within a couple of years they are multiplying like crazy with no reduction in traffic at the first one. I’m sure if someone broke into the TV market with a seperate full power network station on this side of the mountains, the other networks would follow.

On it being a scheme to get people on sat/cable, that makes no sense, as the subchannels are not generally carried on cable, and never on satellite.

Yes the date, and the transition program and coupons were passed as part of another bill, but that was likely in order to get the bill passed. The previous rule was transition on December 31, 2006, with stations able to get a waiver if more than 15% of their customers would be unable to get a digital signal. It came down to a chicken/egg dilemma, people won’t get a digital TV if there aren’t stations, stations won’t go digital until there are customers.
The Color NTSC signal that we still use, was developed in 1950 to be compatible with black and white TVs developed in the 1920s, and has been completely unchanged since then. There’s a lot of market inertia when people have TVs 10-40 years old that “work just fine” and a new standard that’s in any way efficient will be incompatible. Without the changeover, 20 years from now, people would still have analog TVs(they’d probably still be made), and stations would have to maintain analog broadcast to cover them.

1. So, I don’t accept that it is unnecessary
2. more efficient handling might help, but I’m calculating $474,000,000 in resent coupons, by looking at how many have been sent, compared to the budget.
3. Obfuscated? everything I’ve seen puts the people not understanding it either not paying attention to even one of the commercials or news reports, or having a physical or mental problem getting the information(by this I mean to cover the elderly, those not watching TV, blind, etc) I just can’t think of a way to show people what they need to do, if anything, to keep their TVs going. There were arrangements made for presentations to be made at local libraries to explain it to people, I don’t know what happened with that, as in my area it’s mostly pointless. There have been many and varied commercials airing, there have been digital tests, where those still on analog got a preview of February 19 in the middle of the local news.

On reasons not to delay the transition:
1. Most of the wait list as of January 14(last date of stats) would be supplied by coupons expiring in the month that was left
2. The budget is burned through for the commercials telling people about the transition.
3. Most of the people who haven’t got the boxes yes who need them won’t until their TV goes out.
4. There is no more money for coupons, the sooner the stragglers who really need them get cut off and get on the list, the more of them will get the coupons before the money from expiring coupons is truly gone to people who thought they would, and bought the boxes to hook up to their cable TV.
5. Increases cost to broadcasters, many would probably proceed with the analog cutoff anyway.
6. The sooner it happens, the sooner the true coverage problems will be known, and solutions found.

Hawaii already went all digital, there’s been no mobs running the streets due to lack of TV there

Kevin, this is probably something we will simply never agree upon.

The reasoning behind the change, and its need is one where it becomes necessary to understand how signals are propagated, and what the ‘need’ was about.

If you read deep into the explanations given, it was for so-called emergency services. Part of the problem with that explanation is that the services to use the bandwidth are ‘very local’ not needing, or wishing to have, long distance propagation. This means that much higher frequencies than television is broadcast on is what was called for, due to their point to point nature and being relatively unaffected by ’skip’ conditions.

That alone means that the moving of television was completely unnecessary.

That the transition is being handled badly is such understatement that there is little analog to make a comparative. The fact that, at the outset, the public was told that the converter would make everything alright. It was only recently, after a great deal of embarrassment I’m sure, that the public announcements started revealing that a new antenna might possibly be necessary. How ridiculous was this?

I could go on, but it would take much more time and space. The two points above should be enough to show why the delay is necessary.

Thanks.

Hey Oracle!

Thanks for the info. I thought that all of the new channels were on UHF. Am I correct in your saying that some are still on high-vhf?

And I’ve been working with televisions since the early 1970’s and didn’t realize this!

And it’s true that this is something that was seemingly “pushed-through” in a hasty, ill-conceived manner, kind of like the Iraq invasion (yes this conservative will agree with you on some political points).

Like my late father used to say, we need digital TV (or hi-def for that matter) “like tits on a boar hog”.

And to the individual some posts back who insinuated that folks who pay for satellite/cable are somehow less deserving of coupons than those who don’t, Id like to remind them that I pay my fair share of federal taxes and am entitled to those coupons the same as the next person. And who is to say that some folks in this economy might lose their jobs and have to drop pay TV?

Cliffystones, here in the Los Angeles area, ALL the digital transmissions are in the UHF band. However, the channels in the high-VHF band will return there.

In LA that means that channels 7,9,11, and 13 will be moved to their original frequency assignments.

It should be that way in all other markets.

One of the things I find really inane is that that means that channels 2,4, and 5 will then be on higher frequencies than 7-13. UHF assignments will move to their original assignments only if they fall within the range of 14-51, channels 52 to 69 will be reassigned (if they have not been already) to a spot in the 14-51 range - all of this occurs without a new assigned number, leaving the actual frequency of a DTV station anybody’s guess. That is why all the converter boxes, and built in ATSC tuners, have to scan before tuning stations in.

Still in LA? Your bravery is commendable.

I grew up in Maywood. I wouldn’t be caught there after dark these days without an AK. We had line-of-sight to Mount Wilson though. We could actually see the broadcast antennas with a descent telescope.

Lived in Simi until a few years ago. Talking about poor reception! In Simi in the evenings the “skip” on terrestrial channels, especially low-vhf was terrible. I once picked up another station in the background of CBS-2. There was a news broadcast on and I caught the call letters. So I called up the FCC the next day. It was a station in the Dallas-Fort Worth area!

The interference was so bad in Simi, even with a 25 foot mast and rotor, that I finally gave up and went to Direct-TV. Maybe Digital TV will do areas like Simi some good.

Cliffystones, I live in Yucaipa, half way between San Bernardino and Palm Springs, lying along Interstate 10.

At times, because I am on the plateau, I can get Ventura and San Diego, with a set of amplified rabbit ears.

No such luck with DTV however, sometime the (very) local PBS station, KVCR, in San Bernardino, less than 20 miles away, is impossible to get. However, I can pick it up just fine with the switching off of the DTV converter.

These are typical things, and my neighborhood has lots of new, large, outdoor antennas, to go with the converter boxes, with not-so-wonderful results.

I wouldn’t want to be in Maywood ANY time of day, without a police escort. I imagine it is kind of like the Old West was.