“Speaks well of what MS thinks of the retail customer, don’t you think?”

Not really out to defend MS, but do you really think MS chose to do this on purpose to screw over retail customers? I don’t really like the whole activation BS either, but isn’t it possible that this is just an unanticipated problem that MS will fix, as opposed to being something MS did on purpose to make life miserable for paying customers?

Rick

Rick, I don’t think it is purposely done, just careless. There is way too much of it with Microsoft.

Look at how well each revision of Linux comes out, with a community of people not as closely connected, and certainly not as well paid. Any errors that slip though are fixed ASAP, and referenced, not covered up until they sudenly ‘disappear’ in a Service Pack install, that we are told has nothing to do with the problem we were experiencing.

I had the luck of using OS/2 3.0, when MS was shuffling Windows 3.11 at the public. I really don’t know why OS/2 didn’t WIPE OUT Windows right then and there, as OS/2 could multitask like XP does today, running Windows programs better than Windows itself, and no BSODs.

It’s kind of like the VHS/Beta thing, if you could see better than 20/40, you KNEW Beta was superior. But the marketing muscle was behind VHS.

Thanks for the comment. MS is not as bad as some make it out to be, but it’s not as good either.

I only recently started using Linux (Ubuntu) because I’ve been hearing so many comments, like yours, about how wonderful it is. My experience with Linux is extremely limited, and I’m not about to get into seriously trying to compare it to Windows. However, from what I’ve seen of Linux so far, it doesn’t seem to be anywhere near as “perfect” as some Linux fans make it out to be. For starters, there is this bug with PS/2 mouse support. From what I’ve read, this seems to be something that “used to work” in older versions, but is broken in this 7.0.4 Fiesty Fawn version. I found a patch for the problem on some guy’s web site, which got my mouse working for a few days. Then I got a message saying there were 91 software patches I needed to download, so I went ahead and downloaded and installed these patches, and guess what? No more PS/2 mouse support!

So, I don’t know… how well does each new version of Linux really come out? My experience so far: not so well.

I also worked with OS/2 a bit in the past. At one point it did seem like it had definite advantages over Windows. But then it quickly fell behind as MS added more features, etc., to newer versions of Windows. IBM never did a good job of marketing OS/2 to the masses and it never did catch on. You are probably right in comparing it to the Betamax vs. VHS format war. Unfortunately, technical superiority alone is not enough for one product to “win” over another product.

Rick

Rick, by the time MS added more features to Windows, it was 95, and it was all about show, and no go. OS/2 was technically superior in every respect, but then IBM decided it was not going to keep it going. Warp 4 was a good upgrade, but a half-hearted effort on the ad front.

I’m not sure about your mouse problem, I use a USB mouse with Feisty, but as before you will find that fixes come readily, and quickly. Make a note - seriously - check to see how many days it takes before a fix is there - and it’s been 6 months that Vista has been out, only a couple of small fixes have been released, with SP1, which they knew was needed BEFORE THE THING WAS RELEASED is nowhere in sight.

Also, think about the price of Feisty, versus any MS OS.

Google for the mouse problem. Or possibly try another distribution. I’ve always liked Fedora and SuSE. They are very nice, and Fedora defaults to KDE, which many feel is more Windows-like.

Last, nothing is perfect, but think about how much has been accomplished by the Linux community for FREE, while MS has over 20 years of code to work with, and a mob of programmers, who still can’t get much of it right.

Thanks for the comment.

Rick, a couple of other things.

If you like Ubuntu, you could revert to 6.06, instead of 7.04, as it will have long term support, and I know the PS/2 mouse problem is not there. All the other upgraded programs will be as up to date as the ones in Feisty.

Not to beat a dead horse, but when MS changed the file system in Win 95, IBM decided to not worry about it anymore - they had bigger fish to fry. It is too bad, because the better idea - HPFS, the predecessor to NTFS, came from IBM, not Microsoft. But MS changed FAT32 in some part to defeat IBM and OS/2, because MS knew IBM was growing tired of the fight.

I did Google it and here was what I found as far as a patch for the problem: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/87262/comments/13

You’ll note the date on this is May 8, 2007. So the problem has existed for close to 3 months now… maybe longer, since I have no idea how long the problem existed before this guy came up with this patch.

You’re absolutely right that Linux is quite the deal when you consider that you can get it for free. I certainly am not complaining about, or criticizing Linux in any way. I’ve really only been playing around with it for maybe a total of a few hours over the past few weeks, so I am hardly in a position to say much about it one way or the other.

Really the biggest “problem” I see with Linux so far is that I don’t really know what to do with it, besides run the web browser and play the built in games. All the applications I need to use are all Windows applications. I know there are probably some Linux applications around somewhere that might be able to do some of the things I need to do, like Open Office, etc. But there’s nothing like Sony Vegas, or Sony DVD Architect. There might be a program similar to Sony Sound Forge from what I’ve seen, but then there is the learning curve, etc., to start over with a new program when I’ve already bought and paid for a Windows program that I really like using and have been using for several years. Same thing with NetObjects Fusion. I suspect there is probably a comparable web development application for Linux, but do I really want to start over with something new when I have several years experience with NOF and I’ve already bought and paid for it, etc.?

So, who knows. At this point, Linux won’t be anything more than a “toy” that I will play around with and try to learn about. Maybe someday down the road it will actually become something useful to me, but who knows when that will happen.

Rick

Rick, your thoughts are why it hasn’t already taken over. This is why I think it will take a generation to do it. If they move Linux into the schools, it will become second nature to children, and the MS monopoly will be over. This is why, if you follow the news, MS has purposely let its software be pirated in China, and those who don’t pirate, get XP and Office for something like $3.

Thanks for the comment. I know things should just work right, but, while waiting for a fix, have you tried a PS/2-USB adapter for your mouse?

I don’t know if this is the best forum for continuing this discussion, or not, but I’ve got a question you might know the answer to… You said:

“If you like Ubuntu, you could revert to 6.06, instead of 7.04, as it will have long term support,”

I’ve seen similar statements elsewhere, too. Can you explain what that means? To me, it sounds sort of like if Microsoft were to say: “We have a new version of Windows (Vista), but only the older version - XP - will have long term support.”

What is the deal with this? Why won’t the newer version (7.04) have “long term support,” whatever that really means? Why wouldn’t the older version go out of support and the newer version take its place? What is the point of the newer version if not to take the place of the older version?

“while waiting for a fix, have you tried a PS/2-USB adapter for your mouse? ”

Well, the real issue is that I am only running Linux under Virtual PC and Virtual PC only emulates a PS/2 mouse. My actual physical mouse is a USB mouse, so I suppose if I ran Linux native, I would be fine. But, as I said before, at this point I can’t find much use for Linux, other than to play around with it, so it is much more practical for me to run it under VPC where I can play with it while I’m still in Windows and still can use my other applications.

Rick

Rick, this is as good a place as any. I certainly have no problem with it.
Long Term Support is a phrase used to mean that the developers have decided they will continue to publish fixes and give help over a longer period of time than for the other releases, which typically change every 6 months. I think that this is a little aggressive for a time frame, but I am not heading the project. To you, it means that things change more slowly with the LTS version, and it tends to be more solid and completely stable [no bugs go unstomped] Also, LTS versions (I believe) are going to be the only server revisions.
Running under Virtual PC? I have to cry foul on that one. [g]
Actually I can’t help you here as I have never bothered to try it. I have repeatedly seen MS presenters have the program lock up, misbehave, and generally not work on more than one occasion during TechNet presentations. I tend to believe that if they are unable to get it working right on hardware of their choosing, with their other software, what chance does anyone else have?
Besides, if there was any real value to it, MS would have a price tag on it, it would not be free.
[end of anti-MS rant]
I would suggest the 6.06 LTS, as I never had A single problem with it, on machines from a K62+ [533MHz] all the way to a 3.0GHz P4. As long as you devote at least 512MB to it, you should be good to go. [Again, since you're cheating [g], I can’t be positive]
Ask about things anytime, and have a good day.

Thanks for the explanation about Long Term Support. I get it, now.

Virtual PC works great for me. I’ve been running various versions of Windows under it for some time and now I am running Linux, too. I can’t explain why you saw those presenters have problems with it, though.

I’m sure I could install Linux on a separate partition on my main computer and boot it native, or install it on one of the many old computers I have laying around. But, like I said before, at this point, I just don’t know what I would use it for other than just to play around with it and try to learn a little bit about how it works. With that in mind, it’s just a lot more convenient to run it from Virtual PC, so I can run it while I’m still in Windows and I can still use my Windows applications I need to use while easily being able to play around with Linux at the same time and not having to reboot every time I want to switch back and forth. If I had to shutdown Windows and reboot into Linux and then shutdown Linux and reboot into Windows all the time, I’d probably never use Linux at all.

As far as Virtual PC being worthless because MS gives it away for free, I suppose that is one way of looking at it. I really couldn’t say how well it works compared to some of the competing products out there, but it does work perfectly fine for my purposes. Besides, if FREE = WORTHLESS, what does that say for Linux? ;-)

Rick

Rick, Linux operates completely differently than Microsoft. It is not a money making effort from the start.

With MS, it’s hard to see why they give any major app away, as they need to justify efforts on every project to stockholders.

Maybe I’ll give it a try…though it still seems strange that each time I’ve seen it used [5 now] it has not worked as advertised.

You do realize I was just kidding with the comment about FREE = WORTHLESS.

My guess is MS gives VPC away so they can either: a) try to corner the market for VPC-like products or b) encourage people to buy extra licenses for Windows so they can run multiple copies of Windows under VPC. Either way, I suspect they have a long term goal that involves making more money by giving away VPC.

As for why you’ve seen others having so much trouble with VPC, all I can say is try it yourself and see what happens. It won’t cost anything. It’s easy to install and set up. And I think it works great… but then, maybe I’m just lucky… after all, Vista works perfectly fine for me, too!

Rick

Rick its funny that you wrote about this. I was just reading about more problems with VPC and why it really isn’t that great ———>
from an article on ZDNet today.
If I could impress on Microsoft the need to improve two aspects of VPC 2007, these would be:
USB support
If my PC existed in a vacuum, the idea of not having USB support would be just fine, but it doesn’t, and without USB VPC 2007 really isn’t more than a toy. A perfect example if you need one of how Microsoft fails to hit the mark.
Graphics driver
When I look at what Parallels can do over on the Mac platform, I’m appalled when I realize just how basic the graphics drivers for Windows-based virtualization software actually are. On a Mac you can run Vista with full Aero through Parallels, as well as play 3D games through it. Why on earth isn’t this possible on the Windows platform? In this respect, VMware is no better than Microsoft in the kind of support it can offer.
I should add to these issues the fact that Microsoft has made virtualization licensing for Vista far more complicated that it need be - what was wrong with taking an unified approach to virtualization across all versions of Vista rather than trying to play some vague (and frankly farcical) security card to cover up the fact that Microsoft really wants anyone who wants to virtualize Vista to have to pay as much as possible for the privilege.

So while I’m glad things are working for you, I think the average user is not having your experiences, and it is more than time to take MS to task for crappy software which costs too much. In other posts I have shown that MS is allowing pirating of software, and/or dumping it for $3 per copy to be able to kill off interest in Linux in China.
It seems like the people at MS have declared war on anyone or anything that takes away from their absolute rule of all the personal computers in the world.
So after all that - your assumptions are probably right - hopefully they will improve it to show us why we should all use it.

From the article you mentioned, it seems like it is a question of “does it work” vs. “does it have all the features that would be nice to have.” I don’t see anything in what you posted that says VPC doesn’t work or that it crashes or screws up your computer, etc. All I see is that it lacks features that some competing products have.

For being a free and simple way to experiment with running different OSes under Windows, VPC does work just fine for the most part. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement, such as adding USB support, etc., but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work at all. For what I am trying to do, VPC is just fine.

Is Parallels for Mac free? Is VM Ware free? It’s not really fair to criticize something that you get for free for not being as good as something that costs money, don’t you think?

Rick

Rick, the point the author was making is - how helpful is any OS when peripherals don’t work? I still have printers that use a parallel port, but lot’s of people don’t - and probably aren’t of a mind to buy one, or scrounge one up, just to be able to use something of limited use, and functionality - that breaks.

I have recently talked [ well, e-mail conversation] with someone who has also tried repeated times to get it working. His success has never gone more than 24 hrs without a severe problem. So for him, if daily use with shutdown is ok, I suppose that is fine. I usually keep my system actively doing things 24 hrs per day, so when I have to reboot, it’s a pain. I had to do it twice yesterday because of software installs, but before that it had been up 17 days.

Thanks for the comment.