Just curious, as the husband of an ex-Mormon, if you think your path might have been different had you been in a house belonging to another denomination.

I guess in some ways it would have been dependent upon what denomination it was. However, the child like simplicity and requirement to trust in what you are told, rather than what is logical, is a common theme in almost all Christian denominations. I began questioning what I was told by age 8, and by 12 I pretty much figured out that LDS religion was not going to answer the deeper questions I had. I was told when asking such questions, that we were not supposed to question, and that someday all of the answers would be revealed to us, when the time was right. I just did not have that kind of patience. Kind of funny, my adoptive father who raised me was not LDS, but rather an atheist. He had little influence over this area of my raising, though perhaps his opinions still impacted me on some level.

What you say pretty much blows the idea that the Mormon church puts out, which is that doctrine is pretty much the same throughout their wards. It is not so. When I was ‘investigating’ I was given answers to many things that my upbringing in a protestant church did not supply. Although I came to believe that these ‘answers’ were made up along the way, they were never short of answers. For instance, I’m fairly sure that no other religion will try to tell you that God resides on the planet Kolob.
I find that they have a lot of answers not found in the ’standard works’. This was hard for me to take, as first you are asked to take the BOM at face value, and then you are told many things for which there is no evidence, only word of mouth. [we all know how word of mouth changes things]

Whatever the minuses of the Mormon church, I do see their reverence for family as the cornerstone of why they have so many converts.

My computer is down, so it is difficult to post or reply to stuff right now. Having to use someone else’s system, and it really blows. As far as doctrine being the same wherever you go, trust me, it isn’t. First off there are various occult layers that only some of the older Mormon’s know, and some of their descendent’s. I also did my own investigation, all the way to living as the roommate of a Mormon missionary. One guy I met told me that in the last few years, there has been this underground upheaval, people beginning to question due to the new physics, scientific findings, archeology, etc., and that there was this push toward a *loosening* of the church’s perceptions. A Mormon relative of mine sends me this paper, figuring it would help me to see that the church was more *open minded* than I had thought. It was a whole piece of propaganda citing a story about a Mormon man in the church who works for the government in the remote viewing program. The paper was basically talking about psychic powers, and trying to portray the church as being more embracing of such things than people believe. When I was a child, I was very psychic, I was told by my mother that the church said only men were supposed to use such powers. That was probably about 32+ years ago. I have taken note of Mormon’s I know being more open minded than thy used to be. It has been a trend of the Mormon church to change with the times to some degree, such as their allowing dark skinned people to hold the priesthood. That was a powder keg they knew was going to blow up in their face, so they had to change the rules on it. Religion is about numbers, you can’t go about alienating the congregation….too much anyway. They have that all worked into the whole thing though, the prophet having the power to relay direct messages for god, and all that. The message can always change. Anyway, they are trying to in some ways get rid of their old occult image, but at the same time it seems open up to the acceptance that maybe there is more to the situation than was *allowed* to be seen before. The reason for the different beliefs according to ward is rooted in old Mormon families who are often the heads of various offices. They of course are going to run things according to how things were interpreted by their families over time. They all read pretty much the same books though, how many ways can you say the same things over again? There is a real draw though for men, as they are told they can attain godhood and be over their own planet if they play by all the rules. The women just get to produce until there is nothing left of them, and screwed in the missionary position to get there. How fun is that?

Yeah I’ve looked into the Mormon religion and definitely found it lacking, it’s full of good stories, but there is no evidence for pretty much anything that is preached. While completely different when I look into the Bible, there is overwhelming evidence for the truth in it’s cover. I grew up in a very legalistic religion myself and went the opposite way for the reasons you have mentioned. I finally realized though, that just because people couldn’t give me answers didn’t mean there weren’t answers, so did my own studying and have a much deeper faith (not blind faith), but biblical faith on what the evidence does indeed show.

The Christian bible actually is based off of a variety of texts that predate it quite a ways back. A lot of it is borrowed literally word for word, except for the names of the deities has changed. So, yeah, a lot of the bible has historical or cultural truth to it, but quite often from religions predating it. It is kind of funny that the original text it was taken from was the Jewish Torah, but has been altered in a few ways. For example the first wife of Adam wasn’t eve, but Lilith. She turned out to be a real feminist though, so Eve took her place.

Which ancient texts are you referring to?

As I’ve intimated elsewhere in Lockergnome blogs: it’s easy to get mired in labels like “values” vs. “morals”, “Republican” vs. “Democrat”, “LDS” vs. “Catholic”.

«I followed path after path, until I had come to a point that I realized… all I needed was values.»

I’d say you found your own INTERNAL (forgive the label?) “moral compass” — which is the one each of us should be using (i.e., his or her OWN).

«No longer did I live by pre-written ideas… I lived from within. I opened up to experience life from the inside out!»

The essence of Spiritual Awareness! While that discovery is its own reward I’d still like to offer: Good for you, sister!

«I was living life in accordance with my feelings and thoughts in the moment. Instead of a rule telling me what to do, I began to follow my own heart and gut instincts.»

Ohmigawd! How heretical! (wink, wink)

So, you’re saying that if you KNEW the emperor to be naked you not only WOULDN’T practice Orwellian double-think (from “1984”) in an effort to delude yourself that he was clothed…you might actually SHARE WITH THE KINGDOM the fact that he appeared to be naked? —even in contravention of every prevailing social norm that you behave otherwise? Gosh! Practicing that kind of honesty the world might actually arrive at some reasonable semblance of REALITY!

«What did I value? What was important to me?»

…and I’d give you odds that the same KINDS of things (if not the exact same things specifically) are important to pretty much everyone else, too. While the LDS may not agree with the Catholics, Jews and Muslims in the WAY to practice religion, religion ITSELF is a value to all of them. (It’s a value to atheists as well, although atheists contend it’s a NEGATIVE value. Nevertheless, by any definition of the word I’ve ever seen “atheism” is a religion unto itself.) And let anyone who’s been programmed to contend that sex is insignificant to a relationship find their partner in bed with someone else and they’ll soon discover how significant it really is to them.

«Every situation is different, and every experience is different.»

Absolutely! —which is why there can be no “algorithm” for life. This revelation can be as liberating as the realization that one can let go of the edge of the pool and SWIM rather than cling to it for dear life, although the notion appears to horrify a great many people who’ve been conditioned to believe that they’re incapable of “letting go” and navigating their own way.

The title of your blog was a real attention-getter, ShadowMyth, but I beg to differ with the conclusion. If I read you right you’ve found “a” way (perhaps THE way) to be as moral as one can be. Being true to oneself (social influences notwithstanding) is the purest form of morality.

I remember back in the mid-70’s when “values clarification” was introduced into the schools. There was even a manual for teachers. I recognized values clarification then and I have not ceased to recognize it now as the end of self-discipline and restraint and the beginning of total selfishness. We watched the progress of this doctrine for 30 years, shaking our heads the whole time and fearing for what might come. Well now it has come and many of us have had enough. We find the entire younger generation to be self-absorbed, drug-soaked, selfish and brutally rude and, as you say, totally without morals. Kindness and mutual courtesy, gentleness and caring have been replaced by insolence and brutality, and the rest of the world, where values have not been “clarified”, looks on in horror — and disgust. Do you know that you are despised by most of Europe? It’s true, and the young people of our nation are regarded by Europeans as savages who cannot even be related to. Do you think I’m kidding? I’m sorry, but this is the truth, and you just haven’t understood it. Many of my older generation are so disheartened by this ruination of all ideals and all hope that we no longer want to stay here, and we don’t want to see the world that will develop in the years to come when all the young people grow up and take over. This voice you hear speaking now is one of the last, probably, that you will hear saying these things. You will have your spirit-less and light-less world and the only standard that will exist will be the degree of your desire and passion on any given day. This didn’t work for the Romans and it won’t work for us. The Roman civilization simply disappeared and was eaten by hordes of even less worthy people. Are you ready for this scenario again? I’m not, and mercifully I’ll soon be out of here. If you could see into the finer and higher worlds for just a brief glimpse, you would soon know that all life above the coarse phyiscal level is harmonious and kind and no one does any harm there. A life of ever-changing values leads away from this already existing higher life and leads toward — well, go ahead and find out.

I know that this is just my opinion, and the world is a very big place. So I understand that my opinion counts for… well next to nothing. But….
All churches are made up of people. People are raised by Parents.
There is no manual for parents to follow. There are no “Parent Police” to check if parents are teaching kids properly, and to see if parents are treating their children with love and respect.
I guess my point is, you see the world, and Church, thru the experiences you have. I am sorry your parents (and or the people you were raised around) my have miss-informed you about what the LDS teach. In my life I have even been told that LDS are not even allowed to drink water (ROTFLOL)
So… You can not judge any church, by info from just its members, just like you cant judge a car by only looking at it, or listening to its’ radio.

I understand if you wish to live a life devoid of moral rules and such, and in a free society you have that right. Although that does not make morals or a moral code, “wrong”. Just because I have never been to the North Pole, does not mean it is not there. People can talk of the North Pole, and describe it, and take various pics of the North Pole. But… I will never know if it is there, or experience it for myself until I GO investigate it for myself.

Again, this is all my opinion, and you all have the right to live how you wish. But I have had much less restrictive upbringing than described above. So I have had a wonderful experience in the LDS church.

Have a good one :)

“There is no way that every situation has a black or white answer… because life is every color in the rainbow.”

So, you are saying there are absolutely no absolutes? ! ?

What a glaring contradiction!

You talk about looking within? If I’m lost in the woods, the last person I would ask for directions is myself.

You are so wrong…absolutely !

I always find it sad and funny when I hear people say that there is no “right or wrong” - that everything is just a shade of gray. Mostly because that statement in and of itself is a statement of “absolutes”.

If there is no right and wrong, then anything and everything goes. Why? Because now our “values” tell us what is allowable for us as individuals. A person rapes another - this is OK, because the rapist felt that this was acceptable behavior in their minds.

A corporate executive decides to steal millions of dollars from his/her (have to be PC) company and destroys the lives of his/her employees and shareholders and everyone else effected by the collapse of his/her company because in their mind - the money belonged to them and they “needed” it.

Jerry is quite right. Our society is spiraling downward faster and faster precisely because we have indoctrinated children to believe that “values” are the essense to life. We can see this happening in all walks of life. There is no civility - politicians put out advertising that is in most cases out right lies or so distorts the truth as to be a lie. They think nothing of this (unfortunately this crosses over all party lines).

We spend more time telling people that they are swell, and gosh darn “I like myself” that we are now seeing a bunch of narcisistic sycophants that have no concern for anything other than themselves.

Just look around at whom society considers the “greats” in our lives. Paris Hilton, Madonna, rappers…

I would like to suggest two things to shadowmyth. Both are by the philosopher Peter Kreeft. The first is a talk he gave on moral relativism http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/05_relativism/relativism_transcription.htm and the second is his book “Making Choices”. I would be interested in hearing what you think of these.

One other thing I want to say - to everyone who read this. As corny as you may think it or even try to dismiss it.

Jesus loves Y-O-U! This is a fact beyond all comprehension. All of our flaws, all of our imperfections - God looks upon you and smiles for you are as dear to him as any child is to a father.

PAX!

WOW!

Sorry to be weighing in again before you’ve had a chance to respond, ShadowMyth, but unless I misread you myself I’m getting the distinct impression these last several bloggers have no idea what you were talking about—although I suspect their misunderstanding is predicated on your brash title “Why I Have No Morals.”

I wasn’t “getting” that you don’t aspire to ethical behavior but that, for you, what’s “ethical” is contingent on more than just your social conditioning.

For example, it’s culturally engrained in us to believe that one “defends his country” when called to military duty. While there are probably people who will go to their graves believing that the President is infallible in making his decision to wage war a growing number of people are awakening to the fact that maybe this foray into Iraq wasn’t as noble and righteous as they were lead to believe.

Aside from the fact that the United States was itself responsible for the armament of Saddam Hussein (and the Taliban in Afghanistan, for that matter) a growing segment of the American public is coming to the realization that we are NOT “doing God’s work” in Iraq. From Abu Ghraib to Haditha to Guantanamo Bay; from extraordinary renditions to the lies about WMDs, Iraq’s involvement in 9/11 and Hussein’s attempts to purchase fissionable material from Niger: it’s become very clear that this is NOT a “black and white, ‘moral’ undertaking” —Bush’s unrelenting assurances to the contrary notwithstanding.

But those who are locked in to their cultural programming regarding Presidential infallibility will never acknowledge this fact because they ARE their programming—defective though it may be. Likewise those who have been programmed to believe that Muslims are “evil” (by the likes of Pat Robertson) without taking the time to learn the truth about Islam for themselves are naïvely embracing the very immorality they presume to revile.

Not all laws, edicts and religious tenets are reasonable and just, and not all justice and morality resides in laws, edicts and religious tenets. Life, lived properly, is very much an interactive proposition requiring constant attention and reassessment. One who does what he or she has been trained to do simply because he or she has been trained to behave that way is NOT acting from a true sense of moral responsibility but due to operant conditioning.

You can train a monkey to wave a flag and a parrot to recite a psalm, but it takes a sentient human being to connect with the underlying principles which give them meaning and value.

If this wasn’t what you meant, ShadowMyth, then it was I who missed your meaning.

Reminds me of Theodore Sturgeon’s explanation in his classic SF novel “More Then Human” of the difference between ethics and morals:

“Morals are society’s rules for individual survival; ethics are the individual’s rules for society’s survival.”

You know, I am really feely ld now, because I have heard most of your arguments so many times before. Even from my on lips in the 70’s. There is only one slight problem with your morals or rules theory. The best and lasting rule or moral values are based on one basic rule: your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins. I am sure that if someone just wanted to swing their arm and it happened to grace your nose, you would cry foul and declare war.

As far as Religion, I have found that truth or contradiction is one way. The Bible makes it clear that it is either all true or all false. I have had al lot of people come and tell me that the Bible contradicts itself but we have talked and found none in my 55 years. Now Mormons say they believe in and frollow both the Bible and the Book of Mormon which is a contradiction in itself as they don’t agree with each other. Also, while studying for ordination, I did a research paper documenting 82 contradictions between Doctines and Covents and the Book of Morman. I am also confused as to how you, with your background, could be satisfied with the Mormon concept of the Mormon third Heaven, with the Man having eternal sex with his wives populating his planet that he is god of, while you are eternally pregnant.

Previous commenters have adequately pointed out the problem with this assertion that there are no absolutes. Are you absolutely sure?

You have rejected a religious system that, I agree, is not the right way to go (Mormonism). But in the process you’ve also given in to the postmodern downfall of abdicating yourself from all responsibility to discern anything — right or wrong, true or false. Just whatever you feel like. I’m a twentysomething myself and see it pervasively in my generation and in my own life. It might feel nice to just choose to plead ignorant about rights and wrongs and say it’s all gray, but in the end it’s not a sustainable position. Truth does exist, and we do have responsibility.

You view your situation now as having found an inner source of all guidance and wisdom for navigating life. I think you’ve just found yourself a new god, and it’s you. I beg you to keep looking.

I will respond to this on Saturday.

To Rick: Sorry I have lost my original links and information, it has been a few years since I had them. I found these two links though that give some reference to what I am talking about.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/history.html

To Steve: Thank you for your comments, and yes, a lot of these people really misunderstood what I had to say. However it is difficult to see clearly through the eyes of dogma, so I expected no less from a percentage of the reading populace.

To those who felt my ideas would lead myself and others down a dark and dangerous road: Each and everyone out there has had their own experiences, and those experiences have shaped the way they view the world. Some people follow by the dictates of religions and governments, because they feel such organizations know what is best for them. What these leaders want, is your servitude. Some people it seems are not capable of thinking for themselves, they feel others must do this for them. They have others interpret god for them, they blindly obey rules because they believe it is necessary, and they subsume their own personal power to the dictates of what they have been *told* is right. This is the foundation of morals…man made dictates to keep you, and the rest of the population in line. Just as in nature, there are leaders, and there are followers. Just as in nature, the followers way outweigh the leaders. So , we have belief systems created for those who need guidance and told what to do. This really blows for the rest of the population who are leaders, or don’t believe in being subservient to some religious belief that is a threat to their very way of living. Can those of you out there that are Christian, or of other such religions; can you grasp that it is wrong to impose your beliefs on the rest of us? Morals are dictates created by religions no older than around 7,000 years. Before that there was a whole world based off of other religions, that had nothing to do with Christianity, Judaism, or any such groups that have risen up. People’s lived in groups or tribes, and they were very family oriented. They lived more in harmony with the world of nature, because they had no choice. These ancient people’s were far less barbaric than what we call a moral world today. First off, the majority of them didn’t overpopulate. Many ancient groups assessed their situations, decided if their would be enough food for the community the coming winter, and had abortions based on this information. They let their elderly die in peace when they could no longer be useful, knowing they deserved to die with dignity, and no longer suffer. Death was a part of life, and not feared as it is today. People dealt with one another on a one to one basis, on a real personal level. Today most people are pacifist, waiting for others to cure their ills, advice them to right action, settle their disputes for them, or tell them what is good and evil. Women had more respect in many of these groups, sometimes to the point of providing leadership and guidance. Violence was a normal part of life to some degree, and people settled their disputes most often face to face. Because life was in harmony with nature, people’s reasoning behind what they did was rooted in natural laws. There was the most basic of understanding that science calls *cause and effect*. Values are usually based off of cause and effect, and they are logically able to be understood. For example, homosexuality is looked at as immoral. Science tells us that the sexual orientation of a person is determined before they are even born. An increase in homosexuality quite often precedes the fall of a civilization…could this be because of over population problems? When resources get low, nature will create a way to slow it down. As we know, infertility is on the rise too, right along with homosexuality. As many homosexuals as there are these days, I shudder to think how many more people there would be if they were breeding too! Values say…”Hey, I better not have any more kids, this place is getting over crowded, and the very environment we are depending upon is getting destroyed. Do I want to contribute to that?” Morals say “be fruitful, and multiply”. Morals would say that I should turn the other cheek when someone comes in and attacks my family and myself. Cause and effect indicates I will probably die if I do not take action, and I need to defend myself, and those I care about. Morals say “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Logic would say that such ideas breed a *power over* attitude, and no longer works in harmony with the environ one is dependent upon. Morals would say that we should look to the sky’s to escape this place, and go onto something better called heaven. Logic would say we should all gang up on this place called earth, and make it the best place ever! Imagine all the energy that is going toward prayers and all the money going to churches, all going instead toward making heaven on earth. Morals say I need to deny my animal side and my base sexual desire, and don’t ever deviate from the missionary position! Masturbation is wrong! Don’t enjoy yourself like that…it’s evil! Logic/science says pleasure lessens stress, increases one’s lifespan, stimulates the mind, and lightens the heart. Morals say I should connect to mankind through god, and my interactions should be through his rules. Logic says a one on one connection is the deepest, and I can get to know you instead of your god. All of these things based upon morals have no real logical application in our world, they defy the laws of nature from hence the laws of physics arose out of. There is an Oriental belief system called The I-Ching. It is a belief system created entirely from logic, and took into account the natural laws of nature. It has no moral basis to it, but understands the merit of having good values. Rulers used this book to guide their people, and the common man his life. These tenants observed the cycle of cause and effect, and the eventual rise and fall of all things. Everything had a cycle, and a pattern. Nothing was evil, but in a different point of the cycle. Those who follow a system of values are basing it off of what will benefit them most in the long run. Treating your neighbor like crap is not going to win his friendship, and it is always in your best interests to be friends with those who are closest to you. This would be right action in a general kind of sense. However, because values are flexible, we know that *love thy neighbor as thyself* is sometimes not desirable, or even possible. I have had neighbors beating and molesting their kids….do I really love these people? No, I don’t, and I do not see why I should even have to tolerate their existence, let alone love them! People will believe whatever they are going to believe, whether it makes sense or not. They will use circular logic to justify their actions, and write off real logic as the illusions of the devil. Just love Jesus, and everything will be alright. Well, you know what? It isn’t alright. If something works, things go well; if something doesn’t work, things suck. Belief systems with no basis in hard logic have nothing to substantiate them, other than the words of men. Where is the proof? When has suppression ever resulted historically in a pleasant society? When has things like over population benefited us? Why are there so many sheep that seek to make us abide by the most illogical of thought systems? These issues have nothing to do with a specific Christian religion such as Mormonism, but all of the belief systems throughout the world claiming a monotheistic deity that is the *only* true god. Isn’t it obvious? Any time you claim someone is right, then everyone else is wrong. This kind of thinking causes ill will toward opposing ideas, and the need for people to defend themselves, and what they believe. Sometimes it even leads to war, or atrocities we have a hard time fathoming. There is no right or wrong, just a bunch of very confused people. Religious dictates turn into suppression, and from it arises deviant behavior, and confusion. In a world that does not make sense, how is one to follow one’s own inner voice? It can be very difficult when all of these religious and controlling agencies are all telling you what to do, and claiming *they* hold *the* answers. See this article for more information on my opinions on these issues. http://tinyurl.com/2qwy4p

Opposition of extremes leads to conflict, which leads to a break down in societal functioning. Converting to a system based upon real life events occurring around around you in the present, is far more superior than listening to some book that tells us such things as “How blessed will be the one who grabs your babies and smashes them on a rock!” or “Ye shall drink the blood of the princes of the earth”. Does this sound very moral to you? My values tell me first off that killing the babies of others is probably not such a good idea, and cannibalism is not a healthy practice. The CB is an incredibly violent, prejudice, sexist, twisted book, and I have no desire to follow the morals it supposedly calls for me to believe in. Perhaps if people actually read the thing, instead of just believing what they were told, a lot more people would realize what a sick and twisted belief system it is based upon.

Lastly, the very CB that predicts the apocalypse is a step by step guide toward accomplishing it. Overpopulation and suppression has brought about just about every horrible thing Revelations predicts. Of course when you stress the environ with too many people it is going to result in famine, pestilence, death of the world’s waters, and the stressful conditions that lead us to war and to fight amongst ourselves. WAKE UP!!!

We do not have to live this way, there are better roads.

I am responding to the comments made on this page, by the obviously confused and ignorant people posting in reply to this…
First off; I am ShadowMyth’s daughter, and she raised me, home-schooled(most homeschooling families are actually Christian) And I agree that the majority of the population of the youth are ignorant and rude and self-absorbed. I was raised on “Values” Not morals(Although I do enjoy Morel mushrooms), and I cannot even bring myself to hang out w/ my own generation for more then 10 minutes, w/out my brain turning to mush and leaking out my ears. It is not because of the type of thinking that ShadowMyth is portraying here that has caused the degradation of society. It is because of the fact that the entire generation is raised on TV, fast-food, and slave labor crap…and where are their parents? Sucking “God’s” dick? We are animals whether or not we have big brains to fill our heads, we were still born naked, screaming, and groping ourselves. We still crawled around and ate and shit, before there was ever any literary crap to tell us how to exist. Oh and also; I didn’t even know if some of you were actually even READING her blog, b/c of the strange and random comments you made, on things she didn’t even mention!
To the person who said there are no manuals for parents to follow; That’s where “Instinct” comes in. Animals do an awesome job w/out being able to read, in fact I think they do a better job than bi-peds. That’s my piece, there’s too many Morons(Oops I mean Mormons!) to reply to.

KaioteSky

How is being rude a good example of values?

From your lengthy response I think I’m at least starting to see a pattern in your usage of these terms:

“Morals” = Judeo-Christian teachings and emphases, or more generally, anything that anyone proposes to be flat-out “true.”

“Values”/”Logic” = humanistic teachings and emphases, or more generally, whatever is personally comfortable for you to believe.

I apologize up front - this post kind of rambles back and forth :).

Shadowmyth - you said, “Any time you claim someone is right, then everyone else is wrong. This kind of thinking causes ill will toward opposing ideas, and the need for people to defend themselves, and what they believe.”

Ummm - am I the only person who finds this a little bizzare? Aren’t you claiming this very thing? That you are right and everyone else is wrong?

The real reason I decided to post again is this topic of “overpopulation”. I listened to a interview with a man who believed in the “overpopulation” story/myth and went to China to learn how they were dealing with it.

One of the things he came to realize is that the “overpopulation” myth was just that. Many of the people in that country went hungry because of the way the Chinese government did things. When there was a famine in the country (I believe this was in the 1970’s) - many countries (including the USA) offered food to China to help save their people. China didn’t want any part of it and allowed thousands and thousands of their people to die.

In the Middle East - we see the same thing - the governments withhold food from their people as a means of keeping control over their “sovereignty” and allow people to suffer and die.

One point he brought up was that every person in the world (all 6+ billion) of us could fit within the state of Texas. You can do the math and see that it works out. So - if we can all fit in one state in one country on one continent - how can we be overpopulated?

It’s not a matter of food production - we (meaning all of the countries across the globe) can produce more than enough food to feed everyone - our government specifically pays farmers NOT to grow food. So that argument is a little shaky.

Also, you on one hand state that treating your neighbor like crap is not going to win his friendship. But then you disagree with the “love your neighbor as yourself”, stating that you shouldn’t have to love everyone and that you couldn’t love everyone. You use the example of a neighbor molesting your kids as proof of this. There is right and wrong - otherwise you would have to say that the person who molested your children did what was “right” for them and there can be no foul.

I admit - I too would find it very hard to love my neighbor in this situation. But what exactly is Jesus telling us? Is He saying that we need to be best friends, to still invite them over for dinner and pretend that it never happened? I don’t think so. What Jesus was trying to convey to us is that hatred is not going to solve anything. The person who committed the wrong - must be punished according to the mores of society - in our case - he should be put in prison. But most importantly - Jesus was saying that we must not let the hatred consume us. We see that most clearly in the crucifixion. Hanging from the cross, battered, battered, beaten and torn - He looked down and said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

Also - love of neighbor brings about Charity. Seeing in each and everyone the divine (the image and likeness of God) and bringing to them the warmth and love that heals, that helps and that nurtures. I think that the Liberty Mutual commercials of late have been a perfect example of this. The latest one starts with a woman stopping a messenger (or pizza delivery guy) from walking into an intersection and getting struck by a car. Another person sees this and then helps someone else, this goes on and on - round back to the intial woman. This is what is asked of us. This is what love of neighbor means.

I would suggest looking into what Christianity really means. Not how some people act - because unfortunately none of us are perfect and we will all fall at times. The beauty is that through Christ we can get up again and strive once more towards perfection.

so we all just live how we want? what is good or valued to me is ok? you seem to “judge” situations and decide what response is best for you. sounds like a very self centered way to look at life. You just want to do what you want,not what you know is right…you know i looked at the situation about robbing you, and decided its ok for me to do that..are you ok with that? cause i “value” that

Wow, Tim, very cool. Do you ever watch movies? Watch TV? It isn’t very entertaining when there are no bad guys or obstacles to overcome, a movie without conflict has no plot. I would rather have a free reality, and take my chances with the idiot who has the gall to break into my home. The reason why the police cannot keep society in line, and put all *bad guys* away, is because they do not allow the citizen’s to take action into their own hands. If everyone was trained in defending themselves, do you really think we would have to worry much about that kind of thing? I personally welcome having real challenges in daily life…they are often what make up my fondest memories! These obstacles give me the opportunity to test my metal as a person, and develop beyond my limitations. The only reason for a controlled society is apathy…few want to take power into their own hands. What do you think the world was like before there was such control? People were not so generally alienated from one another, I can tell you that much.

After reading some of the responses after my last post, I was going to drop this line and just go back to Chris’s tech posts. But there are some things that have just got to be said. First off, KaioteSky, I am very supportive of Home schooling, but would reccomend that you be more careful about advertising it. What I saw in your article was a rude arrogant child with a severe case of potty mouth. My son, who has done all of his high school work at home. happened to look over my shoulder and ask my why I was reading porn. BTW, he will be a senior this coming year and three colleges have already offered him $40,000 scholorships.

And Shadowmyth, you said
I would rather have a free reality, and take my chances with the idiot who has the gall to break into my home. The reason why the police cannot keep society in line, and put all *bad guys* away, is because they do not allow the citizen’s to take action into their own hands. If everyone was trained in defending themselves, do you really think we would have to worry much about that kind of thing? I personally welcome having real challenges in daily life…they are often what make up my fondest memories! These obstacles give me the opportunity to test my metal as a person,
I made some calls and made sure that the armed forces of the USA are still taking recruits and training them and putting them in places where they can test their mettle. Have you volunteered yet or is all you said a load of fertilizer. I wnet into the service in 72 and most of the people I went though basic trining with did not survive 4 years because of a vacation paradise called Vietnam. There are vets today dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. You want to test your mettle? sign up. Join them. Just don’t spread the fecal material any thicker by telling me that you welcome the opportunity…. BTW, I am a service-connected disabled veteran. My current rating is permanent and total. I have earned the right to speak as I did. I will also admit that I would be asshamed if any of my kids could not communicate better than your daughter or cholse to communicate in the same manner. Whose mettle will be tested the first time she gets smacked for that? SF

Funny, my daughter asked me if she should post that piece, I told her it was rude, but she has free will. We all learn from our mistakes, but we must be free to do so. I do not censor my children, and just live my life as an example. If they do not follow in that example, it is by their own choice. She is 18 now anyway, and has her own life to explore. Second, as far as cussing goes, they are only words referring to body functions some conservatives seem phobic of. Strange. As far as my own self goes, and joining the military…you have obviously not read my other work. Why would I join a military that steps on others for not living or believing as they do? Surely you jest! I believe in freedom, not tyranny.
Education? Bragging about all of your son’s degrees? Read this paper if you want my opinions on that one…
http://tinyurl.com/2oeqg8

I will admit that the things I said were rude, and because of that the truth in the things I said were also overlooked.
I was raised to be my own person, and to state my opinions, and beliefs, whether or not it is polite.
My opinions are not photo-copies of my mother’s teaching, I am an individual w/ my own opinion, as we all are.
We are being suppressed by those of you who belief in your black and white moral justifications to not enjoy life, to walk all over mother earth and destroy her because you are waiting for heaven, for thousands of years in fact you persecuted the ones who enjoy sex, who enjoy life, music, singing, dancing, gambling, drinking etc. And yet; I am supposed to remain polite, passive, politically correct, so that you remain unscathed by the truth? Congratulations to your son for being so well trained in the system, and I hope that he goes on to do something greater than an $8.50 an hour job, as most college students end up doing. I follow my dreams, and be the best person that I can be. I DO in fact live my life consciously of others, of the place I live on(earth)of the people I care for, and even strangers. I AM a selfish person, because I love living life, and I would like to live in a healthy environment, and not see my freedoms and rights taken away by those of you who are afraid of not living in a box.

Sky

Where do you get these ideas? Are you talking about Christians? If so, the majority of what you said is not Christian at all.. you’ve been misinformed about followers of Christ if you think that what you stated is what they believe…

Uh, Rick, I am just going by the Christian Bible. I have read it a few times now, and am kind of familiar with it. You can be Christian all you like, but there are two sides to the CB. If studied carefully, it becomes obvious it is not a life affirming belief system, but rather undermines it’s own values with the actions it requires of it’s adherents. Maybe you believe in some version you have created for yourself, as most people tend to do, or a more lenient interpretation of the religion someone has created for you. If you base it upon the bible, then my own experiences were mild in comparison to how the laws of the bible would truly have dictated my life. For example in my younger years I was raped, and according to biblical laws I was thereafter unfit to be married. Can you imagine the treatment of such women? The bible advocates far more sinister action than most realize, and it is personal. People abide by things they do not fully grasp, or often, have not even fully studied. I cannot imagine dedicating my life to something without completely grasping the roots of it, and the logical messages it was sending. Following blindly in faith what one is told can only lead to folly. The bible is nothing but another book, and not even the original…it was stolen from the Hebrews and altered according to the purposes of a mere king. The story is not exact to the original, and much has been left out or altered. If you did not read my other replies, perhaps it will help you understand where I am coming from better.

Ah, so people REALLY DO find their way back to these blogs even after some time has passed.

I find myself thinking (or at least WANTING to think) that if people really grasped what you’re trying to tell them, ShadowMyth, that they’d agree with you. I mean, will we have to make the same mistake in Iran that we’ve made in Iraq before people start catching on to the fact that “Following blindly in faith what one is told can only lead to folly”? And are there still parents out there who will let the parish priest spend an hour alone “praying” upstairs with their eight year-old son or daughter without checking in periodically to make sure that PRAYING is all that’s going on?

Who can make a logical case against critical thinking, pragmatism and empiricism? —especially when they needn’t be mutually exclusive of any heart-felt spiritual inclinations the person may have. Where do people think their iPhones, computers, wonder drugs, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, PDAs, microwave ovens and plasma TVs came from?

I just read “What I Have to Say is Meaningless” and—once again—beg to differ with your conclusion, though not the content. (BTW: Why were comments disallowed on that one? Your observation about Google ranking was right on. I’ve thought about that many times myself: that there’s an inherent political bias in it which most people probably never consider.) Nothing is “meaningless” (no pun intended) and certainly not your articles. I have however detected a tendency on your part to give your articles somewhat contentious titles, which—while they ARE attention getters—are probably off-putting to many readers. I’m guessing that you might not care all that much but if your aim is to get people to see your point of view the titles may not be helping your case.

I tried to get Chris to forward my email address to you but I don’t think he was too keen on the idea for some reason. I just distilled a video documentary from TV called “Women in Black” about the psychological abuse and corporal punishment of baby boomers in parochial schools at the hands of Catholic nuns that I thought you might be interested in having.

PS for Mr. Pophall (if he finds his way back to this site)…

I’m going to apologize up front for what I’m about to say: not because it’s not the absolute, heart-felt truth but because I know how it will sound to someone in your position.

Your autonomic response that ShadowMyth might best “test her mettle” in the armed forces of the United States is tantamount to the Army’s tagline, “Be all that you can be” without regard for the infinite number of possibilities that exist beyond that mindset, which is all ShadowMyth is attempting to get people to consider.

You flaunt Vietnam like it was a good thing, and considering your “service-connected disability” I can certainly understand your desire to cling to that notion; but let me ask you…

1. In retrospect, is there any way that you can morally reconcile the killing of millions of people on their own soil, thousands of miles away from here?

2. What—besides the slaughter of millions of innocent civilians in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos—did we accomplish in Southeast Asia?

3. Can you see that, since our withdrawal, the Vietnamese are doing JUST FINE without us?

As I’ve posted elsewhere in Lockergnome blogs: the United States has over 700 military bases in 130 of the world’s 190 countries. What–besides some perverted vision of global Manifest Destiny–makes us think we have any right to be in all those places when we wouldn’t tolerate even a single foreign military base on U.S. soil? If you’re as moral as your post would imply that you are, don’t you believe in the Golden Rule?

Furthermore…

Are you aware that the United States was complicit in the coup which ousted Saddam Hussein’s predecessor and that it was the United States which provided arms to Hussein (and the Taliban in Afghanistan, for that matter) after our “friend and ally” (an equally brutal tyrant) the Shah was deposed in Iran and the Ayatollahs took power?

Are you aware that this foray into Iraq was based on the same kinds of lies that got us into Vietnam, but even more blatant?

Are you aware that the mobile biological weapons labs, WMDs, and anthrax never existed? (although the U.S. State Department HAD authorized the export of anthrax culture to Iraq)

Are you aware that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, al Qaeda, or Osama bin Laden?

Are you aware the Saddam Hussein never tried to purchase fissionable material from Niger as the Bush administration contended he did?

Are you aware that since Bush’s 2003 announcement that “major combat operations in Iraq have ended” the war has only escalated?

Are you aware that U.S. sanctions against Iraq before the war killed more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein?

Are you aware that over 2-million people have been made refugees by this war and that 70,000 civilians have been killed so far?

Are you aware that more U.S. soldiers have been killed in Iraq than the number of people who died on 9/11?

Are you aware that—almost to a man—the architects of the war in Iraq conscientiously avoided military duty themselves?

Are you aware that the president’s approval rating is at an all-time low? (less than 30%)

Are you aware that over 70% of the American public wants us OUT of Iraq, but that this won’t happen because we don’t really live in the kind of “democracy” Washington would have us believe we do? —the kind of “democracy” we’re presuming to bring to the rest of the world.

Are you aware that the U.S. is establishing permanent military bases near oil pipelines in Iraq and Afghanistan and that we are in the process of building the largest, fortress-style “embassy” in the world (104 acres) in Baghdad?

Are you aware that the White House is proposing a PERMANENT U.S. presence in Iraq similar to that in South Korea?

The question is: just how AWARE are you, Mr. Pophall?

I don’t denigrate Vietnam vets because, as the saying goes, “there but for the grace of God went I.” I had a lottery number which would have virtually guaranteed my induction had it not been for the fact that the war ended fortuitously in time to keep me from having to make some very difficult decisions about Canada, prison, conscientious objection, etc. I spent the two years of my 2-S deferment trying to understand what we were doing in Southeast Asia, how our involvement there represented anything other than global imperialism, and how my participation in that conflict would benefit my family, community or country. No easy answers were forthcoming and I remained as befuddled by “the fog of nationalism” as any soldier on the battlefield was ever befuddled by “the fog of war.” It is, admittedly, a seductive influence.

At any rate, need I remind you why we lost that war, Mr. Pophall?

We lost it because a determined, indigenous people fighting for their very existence on their own soil will inevitably prevail over an occupying army with nothing more to lose than their lives, limbs and sanity. We lost it because they had the Home Team Advantage. We lost it because the ARVN army wouldn’t fight. We lost it because American soldiers and (gradually, as reality sunk in) the American public lost the will to fight a war of grinding attrition. We lost it because of the Tet offensive. We lost it because of the horrific massacre at My Lai. We lost it because the Commander in Chief declined another term in office at the height of the war—effectively abandoning “the boys in the field.” We lost it because, near the end of the war, a CO a week was getting fragged by disenchanted grunts.

In short: we lost the war in Vietnam because we had no business being there in the first place, and we are losing the war in Iraq for the very same reason.

Some vets with a laudable capacity to jettison their military programming have come to terms with the fact that they were duped into committing immoral acts for a dispassionate administration rife with ulterior motives, while others have not. One such person was (until recently) a friend of the family who served in Vietnam, but was so completely indoctrinated into the “Hoo-ah” Marine mentality that I couldn’t get him to stop sending me specious and inflammatory emails, like the classic (and altogether BS) story of Jane Fonda being rude to the Vietnam vet/owner of Sir Scott’s Oasis Steakhouse, Black Jack Pershing’s execution of Muslims with bullets dipped in pig’s blood, and a gory little offering entitled “How we like to find suicide bombers” featuring the picture of an “insurgent” (i.e., Iraqi freedom fighter) with his head blown off by a .50-cal round.

Realizing there’d be no way for me to help mitigate this guy’s radical position and expose his unsubstantiated claims if I were to abandon him as a friend I spent the last six years trying to talk sense to him, but he wasn’t having it. No matter how many times I PROVED the fallacious nature of his perfunctorily forwarded emails, he wouldn’t quit; so after his last set of gay-bashing, Islam-hating, war-mongering rhetoric I blocked him from sending me any more of it.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

Your son’s future sounds very promising. I hope you wish more for him than “service” to a corrupt administration with delusions of world domination and control, service-connected disability, or “worse”…if death isn’t sometimes a blessing compared to a life filled with recollections of needless war atrocities. (I just became aware of a statistic that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide since the end of the war than U.S. soldiers were killed in the war: “collateral damage” you won’t read about in the recruitment literature.)

In the wake of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq, military Courts Martial have held that in requiring enlistees to obey any LAWFUL order, the Uniform Code of Military Justice thereby implicitly requires them to DISOBEY any UNLAWFUL ones. The problem with this arrangement is that it makes the enlistee the perfect scapegoat: i.e., if he obeys an order which is later determined to be unlawful he can be held accountable for that, while if he disobeys an order which is later determined to be lawful he can be held accountable for that, too. While this ruling is, on its face, an attempt to invalidate the “only following orders” defense its effect is to damn the enlistee “whether he does or doesn’t.” As usual the ranking officials are protected like Mafia Dons while the foot soldier assumes all the liability.

Why would you encourage anyone to subject themselves to such jeopardy and self-effacement at the hands of those who have proven themselves to be liars and cheats?

…and if you still don’t believe that this administration is full of liars and cheats then you really HAVEN’T been paying attention.

I also have read the Bible several times and have studied it, plus other works quite extensively. There are no separate “versions” of the bible, although the “version” you believe in, sounds quite scary and no wonder why you are so against it.

As for rape, if you are talking about the Mosaic law Deut 22:28,29 they were to be married, the rape victim and the raper, not to hurt the rape victim, but to protect the victim. For one, if the rape victim was engaged then the raper was to be stoned.. so far sounds pretty fair to me… If the woman was not engaged then to protect the woman the raper was to be forced to marry the rape victim, since a woman who did not have a brother or father to take care of her and is now undesirable to be married this was how she could be taken care of. We’re also talking about a different society here, completely different then our current society. So in this the raper would not have to take care of the victim as long as he lived. Also if the father found a more suitable manner to provide for his daughter then they could do it that way instead Exodus 22:16,17

There is no perfect way dealing with rape, even today, it’s a horrible horrible thing.. I don’t have to tell you that, you understand it even better than I, even though I have many friends who have been raped, it’s not like having it happen to yourself I am sure. I am very sorry for that happening to you :(

I have a typo:

“So in this the raper would not have to take care of the victim as long as he lived.”

Should have been:

“So in this the raper would HAVE to take care of the victim as long as he lived.”

I really just do not know want to say to you Rick, this conversation on the part of the conservative end is just beginning to leave me speechless. Not due to lack of something to say, but a realization it really doesn’t matter. In truth, I knew it didn’t matter in the first place, but I thought I owed it to my readers to respond.
Now, as far as the rape thing goes, the sympathy was nice, but not needed. Life happens. I was raped three times by the age of 17, by a total of four men. I finally learned my lesson, and have learned to become a very tough person…no one touches me anymore. Life is life, experience is experience, I get over whatever happens pretty swiftly. Life is an opportunity to prove myself as being worthy to be a part of it…that is the law of nature. Why anyone else would have the right to judge how my life goes because of that rape…now that is a different story! What sick twisted mind would make a rape victim be subjected to their raper after the event? She is still whole, no one sewed up her twat…she is still good to go! She can get another guy!!! Yes, things were a different world back then, but I will tell you the Celts and other such peoples sure had more respect for their women!

Steve,
Thank you very much for your support. Yeah, I know, brick walls can’t be communicated with. I have people in my life with very high I.Q.’s, but they still believe in Mormonism, regardless of the evidence that undermines it. My studies in these areas were years ago when I actually thought I could help these people…I gave up a long time ago. As far as the inability to post comments, the website is just full of glitches right now, it was not shut off intentionally. My main page is at:
http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/shadowmyth/
If you want to make comments to any of the pieces, just click the main title.
My email address is: shadowmythproductions@gmail.com
I have access to your email already actually, probably why Chris did not reply. He is a pretty busy person, and it takes most people quite a bit to get a reply out of him.
I know the titles are a bit extreme, but in the blogging business, we have to get them to click before they will read. there is just so much out there, and people tend to go for the most entertaining or controversial.
Good reply to Pophall. I just really do not get into these debates. I used to, but it just feels like such a waste of my time when I know I am only being used to help others validate themselves in some twisted way. I could talk till my tongue fell out, and the majority of these people(see above) would just try to twist what I have to say around. They have no real evidence, nothing rooted in day to day reality…but they just keep moving forward, unaltering, like machines. I think some people are just programs, and nothing more.

You do realize I could say the same of you right?

I just really do not get into these debates. I used to, but it just feels like such a waste of my time when I know I am only being used to help others validate themselves in some twisted way. I could talk till my tongue fell out, and the majority of these people(see above) would just try to twist what I have to say around. They have no real evidence, nothing rooted in day to day reality…but they just keep moving forward, unaltering, like machines. I think some people are just programs, and nothing more.

I agree with you, there is no point in discussing this further, your mind is so closed or actually just read your quote, Im pretty sure most of us feel the same way, at least I know I do. There is insurmountable evidence on the side of Christianity that I could talk until my tongue fell out, but you’re so rooted in your make-believe world, unaltering, like machines, programed to societies lack of reality and the latest craziest, minority of scientists and archaeologists that go along with your view and what makes you feel good. I think some people are just programs and nothing more.