Think “There” Going To Understand That “im” Not So Good At English?

In No 7 do we need the comma after squirrel to be correct?

Robert,

You’ve just hit on one of my pet peeves.

I have a cousin in the deep south that thinks “Y’all” is a word!

But seriously, what gets me are people in positions of authority in the workplace who issue memos on company e-mail and letterheads without proofreading for grammar. Many of them grew up in the US and have no excuse other than they spent their entire childhood “looking at the pictures”, and not reading a single paragraph. And for those who have learned English as a second language, please, please!, get someone to proofread before you finalize your document.

This also brings to mind all of those user manuals written in “Chinglish”. I sometimes have to read a sentence several times in one of these to try to understand it’s exact meaning. Those folks should hire US and/or English proof readers to re-write those things before they put them in the package.

Bravo, great column! The internet massacre of the English language is one of my pet peeves.

What’s even worse is what’s happening to the printed word - have you read a newspaper lately? It’s apparent that the position of editor is not taken very seriously these days.

Re: number 7 - not positive, but pretty darn sure that you don’t need a comma after squirrel as AND takes it’s place.

While your primer is an excellent idea, you are probably just pissing in the wind. Most people couldn’t care less about their spelling, punctuation, capitalization, or grammar in general. Good luck with getting this concept out to the masses!

I agree completely with you have to say as improper grammar and spelling on the internet is one of my biggest pet peeves. Granted the occasional typo is excusable as well as English not being someone’s first language.

If I’m having a discussion with someone though over IM, IRC, message board, or whatever I have a rough time being able to respect and take what they have to say seriously if they’re dialog is consistently filled with errors. Forgivable on occasion but when it happens too often then I have to wonder if the person really doesn’t see what they’re doing or they’re just too damn lazy to care.

I tend to ignore opinions made by people who use poor English. If they are not native speakers, I take that into account. You should see my Spanish!

Language is a crude approximation of thought. Thought is messy and heavily revised, as are many postings. This, and setting a reasonable effort priority on the posting lead to errors. I challenge Mr Fogarty and the grammar-spelling clique to find a common, reasonable case where disregarding his extremely valid observations would cause a significant misinterpretation of meaning.

Great (and badly needed) commentary; I’m a little surprised you didn’t mention one of the most misunderstood (and misused) words in English: it’s/its. Sandi’s entry, for example, should have ended “AND takes its [not it's] place.” “It’s” is a contraction for “it is,” never anything else. Sandi, however, is correct that a comma after the next-to-last item in a series before a conjunction is not required but is recommended.

Actually, item number 7 above should have a further correction. In addition to eliminating the extra space, a comma is not necessary after the word “squirrel”. Following a series of nouns separated by commas, a comma before the “and” after the final word can be eliminated (but this may be optional). The better reading is:

I’m going to buy a moose, a squirrel and a koala for my zoo. (I like animals.)

Most of this isn’t really about knowing the rules, it is about caring about your readers. The argument that errors don’t affect the meaning is bogus: many of the readers won’t have English as their first language, and this makes it even harder for them to understand, and to reply to you in intelligible language.

Regarding serial commas: it’s a style issue, really. You’re allowed to have a comma after the and, or you can do without — neither are incorrect. I like them because, to me, they clear up confusion that might arise without them.

This Wikipedia entry presents some good cases for and against using serial commas. Also:

The Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White’s Elements of Style, most authorities on American English and Canadian English, and some authorities on British English (for example, Oxford University Press, and Fowler’s Modern English Usage) recommend the use of the serial comma. Newspaper style guides (such as those published by The New York Times, the Associated Press, The Times newspaper in the United Kingdom, and the Canadian Press) recommend against it, possibly for economy of space.

It’s pretty cool to have a choice, though, hmm? It seems rare that our language can be so forgiving! Go with what makes you comfortable.

Oh! And to tfree:

I included the link to The Apostrophe Protection Society in “Apostrophes. Know when to use them. Know when not to use them.” The kind people there explain the its vs. it’s situation better than I can!

I think it makes sense, however some people express themselves in ways of punctuality so having a couple !!!!! or ???? can get the point across a bit better than a simple ! or ?. Of course when it comes to spelling you have a good point. Be advised however that in the blogging world, there aren’t many sites out there that actually have a page for this and a comment box so in reality, that might turn people off.

T he one thing that bugs me even more than bad spelling/grammer is the use of chat/text shortcuts for words when writing a blog, or post, or whatever. Those are fine if you are texting someone and need to be fast, but not in a serious discusion about anything! “New English” as I think it is being called, is not worth my time reading in messages.

To tfree:

When I used the apostrophe in “it’s place” I was using it to denote ownership as in cat’s meow or Tom’s bike, not as a contraction for it is. I believe it is correct in that context.

Alas, “it’s” only ever means “it is.”

It’s one of the English language’s most common points of confusion!

Think of “its” as a plain old possessive pronoun, like “yours” or “hers” or “his.”

Here’s an explanation that might help!

If you don’t know how to write using the English language, then I will assume you are either a child, a foreigner, or just a complete moron. None of these are in any position to command my attention.

And, for the record:

If you made it past 5th grade, and you don’t know the difference between “Its” & “It’s”; then your TEACHERS need to be LINED UP and SHOT, and YOU need to go BACK TO SCHOOL on something other than a SPORTS SCHOLARSHIP!

[...] long ago, Robert Glen Fogarty posted an interesting article about English and presentation. In the article, Robert mentioned a “shiny new style manual.” Even [...]

Hi Robert:

Good primer. Definitely relevant and overdue.

Uh, if you are going to use an example however, you should try to make it correct. For example…

Quote: When I went to the beach, I figured I would get sunburn. I did not, as I made sure to wear sunscreen. End quote.

In my view, the word sunburn should really be used in the past tense here, ie: sunburned.

You can get “a” sunburn, or you “can sunburn”, but…if you got red in the sun yesterday, buddy “You got “sunburned”!

Again, great job.

Good point, Gord! I probably had a sunburn when I wrote that.

I’ll fix it. Thanks!

I thoroughly enjoyed this article.

Whaa? Do you think I’m some kinda eeliterate?

This was an exstemly instersting post, this is really going to help me with my writing skills, and hope fully I will be able to get a lockergnome blog!

Thanks.

[...] If you’re interested in becoming a blogger at Lockergnome, start by creating an account at our community site, Geeks! (it’s free), and just start blogging — we have our scouting eyes open over there, so if you prove you can write engagingly, competently, and frequently, you’ll be hearing from us sooner than you know it! Spelling, usage, grammar, and basic English skills count. [...]

@Gord: i guess that’s true - unless one is referring to “sunburn” as the name of the condition.